[LM24] F1 attacks Le Mans

[Stefvh]

Montagny was driving for SA at that time.

[Oldtony]

I hink the F1 people are starting to worry about a little thing called rellevance.
If a manufacturer can spend his race R&D money on better engines, improved electronics, superior transnissions etc. all of which have some rellevance to their road cars, why would they bother with a Formula that has an engine freeze, a control ECU and limited transmission options.
Do they really want to spend all that money running wind tunnels 24hrs per day to develop another funny little wingy thingy?

And maybe this should be back in the F1 thread, they are the ones with the problem!

[dxk1]

While Mario Andretti never won Le Mans, he was a very successful Sportscar driver and a very successful F1 driver. I never heard him say anything bad about Le Mans but he certainly had some complaints about the way F1 was run. In the end, he keeps involved in IndyCar Racing and in Sportscar racing but devoutly ignores F1. What does that say?

DK

[isynge]

I'm not sure whether it comes down to the driver or the team approach that raises the interesting phenomenon of successful F1 drivers not always getting commensurate success in sportscars.

At Le Mans this year I was struck by the parallels between the Peugeot effort and Lancia's approach in the early 1980s, both teams being stocked with F1 drivers, both being tremendously fast, and (as yet) neither winning Le Mans.

Fundamentally a talented driver will hold their head up in either discipline, and both have their share of those that aren't quite at the front line. It's an interesting exercise to spot winning driving combinations over the years who have had zero F1 experience. So, for all I don't agree with Kubica's comments in the IHT (and who knows how that quote was elicited from him and what the context was) I suspect if you put him in a top end prototype he'd be bang on the pace and perfectly capable of running for 24 hours.

Rather than getting involved in the precise quotes in the story etc, more interesting is the fact the article was commissioned and published, which reflects well on sportscar racing in that it's even being mentioned in the same breath as F1 and in the context of being a "threat"; now that is something to think about.

[mattcat]

Anyone who has watched Kubica drive can tell you that the man can push an F1 car to its absolute limits. I highly doubt that he would be unable to do the same in an LMP1 car. In fact, I would say that once he got used to the car, he would be one of the premier prototype drivers. Shame we might never see that happen, and it's a further shame that so many people on this forum fail to recognise his talent...

[ascarracinguk]

at the end of teh day cars and drivers race to the conditions, for instance drag cars last 4 seconds, theyre designed to, if they last 5 seconds its inefficient, same with f1 and le mans cars, for ron to say the 24hrs is a survival race, well hes right in some respects but hes also nieve, f1 cars have to last a lot longer than they used to, years ago they had qually engines and could replace anything, now they have to last races on end, so isnt that just the same? f1 cars are more like endurance cars than they were in teh mid 90s, so hes a little short sighted i think

[kingkai]

Originally Posted by Stefvh

Montagny was driving for SA at that time.

Doesn't Alexander Wurz count? he done a few races in 06/(07?) in the McLaren/Mercedes

[GT6]

I think the main point here is that as F1 starts to feel the pinch of failing sponsership money, collapsing teams TV channels pulling out (ITV) and lack of public interest, Sports car racing is on the up.

Increase in TV appearances, actually made the daily papers in UK and on News on both ITV and BBC on monday.

Increase in field size, largest entry for Le mans ever.

Largest attendance for Le mans ever this year, despite Euro football and UK attendance down due to last years weather and the classic in a month.

All this points to Sportscars on the way up while F1 is in the news more for Mr Moselys antics than any serious sporting activity.

Oh and previous comment about Sir Sterling Moss When I meet him a couple of years ago he was stating that Le Mans was is and always will be the greatest race, and I believed him.

[Zurbert82]

Originally Posted by kingkai

Doesn't Alexander Wurz count? he done a few races in 06/(07?) in the McLaren/Mercedes

Wurz drove with Williams in 16 out of 17 races last year.

[Dunlop Corner]

But did not do Le Mans last year, Bourdais was the 3rd man in the 8 car then.

It seems the last F1 race driver to do Le Mans was Montagny. In 2006 he drove the middle of the season at Super Aguri, while also doing Le Mans for Pescarolo.

[Tom87]

Whilst I have been a Formula One fan for many years I have gradually lost almost all respect for the drivers, teams and organisers, it truly is more about pleasing sponsors and making money than actual racing. Le Mans however is going through a golden period of growth and competition which so long as the FIA or anyone else with any vested interests don't interfere may bring it once again into the public spotlight where it should be.

I think any arrogant endurance-snob Formula One drivers who doubt the talent bravery and commitment required to suceed at Le Mans should watch a video of Nic Minassian driving the 908... on slicks... in the rain... still catching TK - that requires serious talent and serious balls!

[FIRE]

Ask young talented drivers what they want. Probably 99% will answer: F1. If drivers get a full time F1 seat they don't think about other series (some of them even look down on everything else as F1). But if they get older and no longer in F1 they look at other series. If Le Mans was not about real racing there had not been 22 former F1 drivers racing last weekend. If Kubica is a real racer with petrol (or diesel ) in his veins I am sure he will drive at Le Mans in 10, 15 years time.

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by GT6

Oh and previous comment about Sir Sterling Moss When I meet him a couple of years ago he was stating that Le Mans was is and always will be the greatest race, and I believed him.

Great race etc, but his dislike of racing there was reported in an interview he gave to octane.

Octane

The real point is that a great driver will be fast round any track in any car. A great F1 driver however does not always make a great Sportscar one over the coarse of the whole race, and a great sports car driver may not shine in an F1 car.

[Adam43]

I hate things like this as it always shows the side of the sport I love having a huge chip on its shoulder.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

I hate things like this as it always shows the side of the sport I love having a huge chip on its shoulder.

Here's another chip for you, I would be overjoyed if that sham of a sport that calls itself F1 imploded.

Le Mans, WTCC, WRC, have all been attacked and practically destroyed at certain points by the F1 establisment, god forbid any other sport taking a (small) slice of the F1 publicity pie.

The day Le Mans/ACO became independent from the FIA, in a sporting sense, is the day Le Mans got back on it's feet, you at last felt the people pulling the strings were actually sportscar enthusiasts, rather than trying to pull the rug from under the feet of a succesful race/series.

I don't wish to put the boot in any longer, afterall, these days F1 is better known for spy and sex scandals, irrelevant and token (KERS) technology, horrendous looking cars, and massive (surely unsustainable) budgets.

PS, I wouldn't have known Kubica from Adam two weeks ago, and I'm speaking as a gerenal motorsport fan who could name most major Sportscar/WTCC/DTM/WRC drivers, and follwed F1 intently through the Mansell and Hill years.

If someone like myself is not picking up on the marketing push manufactuers are making, it won't be long before at least half of the manufactuers involved in F1 begin to reassess their massive F1 budgets.

At one time during the late 90's F1 was considered the be all and end all, now manufactuers are begining to realise F1 is appealing to fewer enthusiats, they need to take an interest in other series, whether than be sportscars, touring cars, rally, whatever.

But let's be honest, what I and other sportscar enthusiasts think isn't relevant, it's the changing world, the economy, alternative fuels, road car relevance etc. that will hit F1 hard.

What will you be able to justify to your board of directors, a demanding public and an ever more crtical media, a gas guzzling glorified F3 car with 20,000rpm engines and the looks of a Tie Fighter, or a hybrid engined, fuel efficient (with rewards from the organisor), low drag bodied machine with road car looks?

Bit of a rant I know!

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by JAG

oPS, I wouldn't have known Kubica from Adam two weeks ago,

Yes, you would, Kubica is no Brad Pitt.

and I'm speaking as a gerenal motorsport fan who could name most major Sportscar/WTCC/DTM/WRC drivers, and follwed F1 intently through the Mansell and Hill years.

Well done!

If someone like myself is not picking up on the marketing push manufactuers are making, it won't be long before at least half of the manufactuers involved in F1 begin to reassess their massive F1 budgets.

Someone like you? Problem is the marketing doesn't work on you, but it works more than Sportscar marketing! An indication of how hateful the world is probably.

Whatever, I like my Sportscar, but I havee no interest in hating the rest of the world for it.

But let's be honest, what I and other sportscar enthusiasts think isn't relevant, it's the changing world, the economy, alternative fuels, road car relevance etc. that will hit F1 hard.

Right on the first part. However the later part; I hope F1 doesn't go all car relevant.

Not too bothered about Sportscar doing it either; after all it is done in an artificial way (see other threads!)

We've just had a great 24 hours, an unusually close one, lets just enjoy that rather than going for the jugular over a quote! After all Moss said similar things (as mentioned above). It is just a different view point.

[johntt]

Originally Posted by JAG

Here's another chip for you, I would be overjoyed if that sham of a sport that calls itself F1 imploded.

Le Mans, WTCC, WRC, have all been attacked and practically destroyed at certain points by the F1 establisment, god forbid any other sport taking a (small) slice of the F1 publicity pie.

The day Le Mans/ACO became independent from the FIA, in a sporting sense, is the day Le Mans got back on it's feet, you at last felt the people pulling the strings were actually sportscar enthusiasts, rather than trying to pull the rug from under the feet of a succesful race/series.

I don't wish to put the boot in any longer, afterall, these days F1 is better known for spy and sex scandals, irrelevant and token (KERS) technology, horrendous looking cars, and massive (surely unsustainable) budgets.

PS, I wouldn't have known Kubica from Adam two weeks ago, and I'm speaking as a gerenal motorsport fan who could name most major Sportscar/WTCC/DTM/WRC drivers, and follwed F1 intently through the Mansell and Hill years.

If someone like myself is not picking up on the marketing push manufactuers are making, it won't be long before at least half of the manufactuers involved in F1 begin to reassess their massive F1 budgets.

At one time during the late 90's F1 was considered the be all and end all, now manufactuers are begining to realise F1 is appealing to fewer enthusiats, they need to take an interest in other series, whether than be sportscars, touring cars, rally, whatever.

But let's be honest, what I and other sportscar enthusiasts think isn't relevant, it's the changing world, the economy, alternative fuels, road car relevance etc. that will hit F1 hard.

What will you be able to justify to your board of directors, a demanding public and an ever more crtical media, a gas guzzling glorified F3 car with 20,000rpm engines and the looks of a Tie Fighter, or a hybrid engined, fuel efficient (with rewards from the organisor), low drag bodied machine with road car looks?

Bit of a rant I know!

Nail.
Head.

I am into most forms of motorsport. I grew up watching F1, WRC and BTCC. Recently, thanks to the free live coverage of the then-Busch Series race at Montreal last summer and then the Watkins Glen race i got into Nascar.

But my favourite type of motorsport has been sportscars, ever since I first went to Le Mans in 1998 when I was 10. Sportscars instantly became my favourite type of motor racing.

With the current political climate F1 is becoming a massive irrelevance and its increasing restriction on innovation and development (to the point that there is more technical freedom in Nascar according to some F1 engineers) while introducing token 'green' tech insults the intelligence of most and will be seen straight through by public and environmental movement alike.

I am no fan of the green lobby, as a politics student I have seen how they are incredibly dogmatic, extreme and shockingly intolerant of any criticism or questioning. They way to defeat them is to out-green them, make them the irrelevance before they make us the irrelevance.

Use water-tight solutions. Type 'algae fuel' and 'biogasoline' into wikipedia. I've posted the links many times before.

In this situation the ACO has the perfect opportunity to sieze the intitative make sportscar racing the high profile sport that it deserves to be.

[Adam43]

I'm so excited for the future of algae racing. It might evolve into something.

[johntt]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

I'm so excited for the future of algae racing. It might evolve into something.

Thinking about it, usiing biogasoline made from algae we'll be able to drop the whole diesel thing and go back to big, loud engines. Screaming V10s back in F1, V8s and Inline 6s back in BTCC, Nascar will just continue like nothing happened and the green lobby will crawl back under the rock from whence they came and never again grace us with their presence.

Algae will evolve into something, great motorsport and cheap fuel .

[dj choc ice]

Originally Posted by johntt

Thinking about it, usiing biogasoline made from algae we'll be able to drop the whole diesel thing and go back to big, loud engines. Screaming V10s back in F1, V8s and Inline 6s back in BTCC, Nascar will just continue like nothing happened and the green lobby will crawl back under the rock from whence they came and never again grace us with their presence.

Algae will evolve into something, great motorsport and cheap fuel .

amen to that

sportscar racing is fantastic at the moment, ive been to an F1 race once and it is something i wouldnt want to go to again, the cars were boring, the racing was worse and the disdain of teams and drivers to the fans was appauling and disgusting and what is F1 in the tabloids for?

not the racing, more like max moseley and his deranged sexual adventures and mclaren and ferrari and other spying on one another, begs the question as to wether you can class F1 as motorsport anymore, to the press in F1 the racing now comes second, laughable.

and for sportscar racing? the racing is bloody fantastic in all classes on both sides of the pond (exclude LMP1 in the ALMS though), the cars are brilliant, they sound amazing, are great to watch and the racing is close and spectacular, the drivers are friendly and good people and the teams dont treat the fans like crap.

simple case is this, F1 is feeling the pinch, there is a bitter taste of jealousy in the mouth of F1 at the moment towards sportscar racing more than anything.

and as for JAG's comment about the F1 establishment buggering things up for other forms of motorsport at some point, bloody good point, very true and something that really ticks me off.

for the time being, F1 is nothing but a scandalous, snobby, dull dirge thats trying to put itself under the umbrella of motosport, which F1 is not anymore, not until they sort things out, ala giving max moseley the boot.

[Adam43]

Where is that mirror?

(and off topic, for reasoning on why it is F1's responsibility to give Max the boot perhaps one of the Max thread could be used.)

[the sniper]

I was not going to say anything (I didn't want to become an enemy of the sportscar forum ) but some people's comments have rather surprised me, mainly because of the resentment shown towards Formula 1.

Originally Posted by Dario911

They are only interested to money and business. Nothing else. Spy stories, thieves... You can't find anything of this in the Endurance.
Here you can find only the real motorsport essence: courage, greatful drivers, cars and teams, wonderful races and fair play.

I have highlighted some of your interesting points. Firstly I am guessing that Peugeot and Audi are just at Le Mans for fun, not to attract people to buy their cars so to make more money? Secondly when you say greatful drivers, do you mean ex-single seater drivers like Alexandre Premat & Olivier Pla who are greatful they can keep racing (without paying) after failing to get to F1? Thirdly, I am sure Formula 1 has both teams and cars

Originally Posted by GT6

I think the main point here is that as F1 starts to feel the pinch of failing sponsership money, collapsing teams TV channels pulling out (ITV) and lack of public interest, Sports car racing is on the up.

Apart from Monoco I have not seen that much of a reduction in sponsorship, feel free to give examples as I may well be in the wrong. Your point about "TV channels pulling out" is a little weak, yes ITV didn't want to pay but this was because they wanted to use the money to buy football rights, which is by far the most lucrative sport to broadcast in this country. About the "lack of public interest" in Formula 1, what makes you think this is transferring accross to sportcars? The lack of public interest is more a general problem for motor sport in this country then that of just F1.

Originally Posted by GT6

Increase in TV appearances, actually made the daily papers in UK and on News on both ITV and BBC on monday.

When you compare Le Mans short news pieces and live coverage which was paid for by the Manufactures involved in the race to Formula 1's terrestrial coverage worth over 30 million per year, it's pretty pitiful...

Mark Cole said himself that Audi had 'invited' journalists from the tabloids, it would have been rude of them to turn down an all expenses paid weekend of champaign drinking in France

Originally Posted by johntt

In this situation the ACO has the perfect opportunity to sieze the intitative make sportscar racing the high profile sport that it deserves to be.

I don't think that sportscar racing will ever be anything more then a minority sport. If it did become mainstream like F1 us fans would be the first to complain, do you think that the 1000km races would survive?

I hope that the ACO can sort out a good highlights package for next year with the BBC, but I don't see it happening. That is the only way that sportscar racing has any chance of attracting a wider audience.

Originally Posted by Dario911

They afraid for endurance rebirth, because they know all this. They know endurance is better than their false, dirty world.

Originally Posted by dj choc ice

simple case is this, F1 is feeling the pinch, there is a bitter taste of jealousy in the mouth of F1 at the moment towards sportscar racing more than anything.

At the moment, what does Formula 1 have to be jealous of? It has much higher viewing figures and four more car manufacturers. If we go back to the original point of this thread, what do Ross Brawn, Ron Dennis and Robert Kubica have to gain from putting down sportcars? Nothing really. I would understand if this was Bernie and Max talking but it's not, it's just people who work in F1 answering a question, what do you want them to do, lie and say they love sportscars?

(By the way I love all motorsport, I watched the whole 24hrs and as much of the LMS as possible, so I have nothing against it . Also sorry for the massive post )

[Adam43]

F1, it's so mainstream.

[RaiseYourFist]

I cant believe anyone can say that current LMP prototypes look good....

[Adam43]

It is probably the complete lack of politics in Sportscar racing that attracts people to the cars