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Old 15 Oct 2018, 17:56 (Ref:3856984)   #276
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Even though we've engaged in plenty of banter about this and all's fair in love, war and internet discussions, the fact remains that a lot of people ('fans' or otherwise) don't share that inherent love of the sport for the sport's sake. I like vegetables and believe they're a great thing, but I don't like to eat all vegetables, as some of them don't excite my taste buds. I want more from my vegetables than just the fact that they're vegetables and they're a wonder of nature for the fact that they grow for us to eat.....
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Old 15 Oct 2018, 18:03 (Ref:3856987)   #277
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LH on the concept of a 'super weekend' format.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/h...or-f1/3188562/

while he is not really suggesting anything new, nor a concrete plan, he raises a point that some tracks have a tendency to produce uneventful races and should look to a change in format. he briefly throws up the idea of reverse grids but he has suggested earlier this year some tracks look at running in the opposite direction.

probably a non starter for some, but with too many races (imo) on the calendar i cant say im completely against the idea of some races doing something different in a hope to generate more interest/excitement.

Barcelona and Sochi probably are at he top of my list of races that could stand for less of the same.
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Old 15 Oct 2018, 20:06 (Ref:3857007)   #278
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Fans as a group don't exist? What a strange statement.

Surely we at 10/10 as a group are fans. Otherwise we would not be here. I come here because I am a fan and to share opinion (whether I agree with that opinion or not) with a group of other fans of varying degrees..
You've underlined my point. There are certainly many groups of 'fans' who can't even agree amongst themselves (and that's not a bad thing, otherwise why would we be here ).

As such, the group 'F1 fans' simply doesn't exist as anything tangible. It's an empty and valueless concept. The statement 'doing something for the fans' is completely meaningless. At the very best it means catering to what the most vocal minority seem to want. Ask anyone who calls themselves a fan what they want from F1 and you get a million different answers. And there's the fact that most of them don't even really know what they want, and what they say they want is not actually what they really want. Oh, and if they get what they want they don't recognize it, complain and want it back to the way it used to be. This is not me calling everyone stupid, I am just as susceptible to this as anyone else. It took quite a bit of effort to put my thoughts into suggestions earlier in this thread, and even if F1 took all my suggestions there would be unintended consequences that I would complain about incessantly

One of the reasons for this is that there are broadly two types of people who follow F1: people who like racing and people who like F1 for other reasons (aka Alonso. More people watched him test an IndyCar than there were people watching for the entire rest of the season combined). A community such as this clearly falls in the first category. I reckon this is a very small minority though. F1 is a self-fulfilling prophecy: it says it's the highest form of motorsport so it is. As long as enough people (manufacturers, sponsors, drivers etc) buy into that idea it will remain that. I forget who coined this phrase but it applies here: F1 is famous for being famous. It's the history, the stories, the equity. All that means any attempt to try to cater to either group will fail. And that's why in my view it should always try to go back to the fundamentals: twenty-odd cars going round a track for a certain number of laps and whoever crosses the line first wins. Whatever happens just before or just after that they can try whatever they like. Just try to leave the middle part alone as much as possible.
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Old 15 Oct 2018, 20:23 (Ref:3857011)   #279
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Even though we've engaged in plenty of banter about this and all's fair in love, war and internet discussions, the fact remains that a lot of people ('fans' or otherwise) don't share that inherent love of the sport for the sport's sake. I like vegetables and believe they're a great thing, but I don't like to eat all vegetables, as some of them don't excite my taste buds. I want more from my vegetables than just the fact that they're vegetables and they're a wonder of nature for the fact that they grow for us to eat.....
\You've solved your own dilemma. You don't like certain vegetables. Neither do I. You, like I, don't have to eat the ones we don't prefer. No one is even suggesting you do. Eat the vegetables you prefer. Simple enough, no?

I don't care for NASCAR, IndyCar, or BoPed sportscars. 'Guess what I do or don't do? Don't guess, I'll answer. I don't follow them.

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Old 16 Oct 2018, 11:22 (Ref:3857108)   #280
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This confirms why the current format is definitely not racing. Nor is it even a technical challenge. https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13...etely-cruising
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Old 16 Oct 2018, 14:58 (Ref:3857128)   #281
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This confirms why the current format is definitely not racing. Nor is it even a technical challenge. https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13...etely-cruising
Which confirms my suggestion that going back to old school, harder, race-lasting tires (tyres?) would be a good thang....
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Old 16 Oct 2018, 15:55 (Ref:3857134)   #282
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but doesnt a more durable tire mean a slower car?

i do like the notion of a lower/thinner gauge tire as suggested by LH in that article...many wont like that though as i assume it will mean more pit stops will be necessary.

dont want to get bogged down by what or how we all define 'racing' but surely slower isnt racing...or is it..or maybe there doesnt need to be a trade off between the two?

an off topic point, but still amazed by Eliud Kipchoge's recent marathon record...essentially redefining what we think of as racing by running 26 consecutive miles at 4min 38 sec per mile.

one no longer has to manage pace while maximizing speed over distance.
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Old 16 Oct 2018, 16:38 (Ref:3857137)   #283
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I don't to watch racing where the team spends $350 Million a year and has to crawl around during on their tyres...

Less emphasis on engineering and a lot more on the talent of the driver...
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Old 16 Oct 2018, 16:58 (Ref:3857142)   #284
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I don't to watch racing where the team spends $350 Million a year and has to crawl around during on their tyres...

Less emphasis on engineering and a lot more on the talent of the driver...
There are plenty of series where there is more emphasis on the driver but F1 is every bit as much about engineering as it is driving.
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Old 16 Oct 2018, 17:31 (Ref:3857145)   #285
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Which confirms my suggestion that going back to old school, harder, race-lasting tires (tyres?) would be a good thang....
I think that more durable tires would be a good thing. Maybe tire manufactures should be allowed to show what they can do vs the series mandating particular characteristics? And I don't think this requires a tire war to result in a better tire.

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but doesnt a more durable tire mean a slower car?

i do like the notion of a lower/thinner gauge tire as suggested by LH in that article...many wont like that though as i assume it will mean more pit stops will be necessary.
It might or it might not. So based upon your comment (and my lack of knowledge of what a "thinner gauge tire" means, I tried to find out what the backstory is. I also didn't know if this meant more pit stops due to a durability hit. I found this article from a number of months back...

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f...22739/1400291/

My interpretation is that the FIA has VERY specific ideas of what the tire should do and that also includes thickness of the rubber and overall weight. It sounds like to me that Pirelli said "we can do better... please let us build something slightly different" and then the FIA allowed them to do that for three events. So the result is a slightly thinner tire (that is also lighter), but has similar durability but less issues with blistering. It may not work everywhere, but it sounds like they clearly can do better. Which may be why the drivers are asking for this tire to be used more.

So the point here is that better solutions exist, but Pirelli have their hands tied. Maybe this success will adjust thinking by the FIA?

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I don't to watch racing where the team spends $350 Million a year and has to crawl around during on their tyres...

Less emphasis on engineering and a lot more on the talent of the driver...
And to my points above, this is less about "engineering" creating this problem, but rather the rules makers creating a spec tire that creates this problem. In a sense, this problem is the result of anti-engineering. The FIA trying to manipulate things to create specific scenarios. In short, they are playing games with durability in an attempt to "try" to spice things up. But instead of teams suddenly finding "oh no, our performance is dropping off, we need to pit (with associated impacts to on-track positions... i.e. the FIA goal here)", they have figured out the tires performance window and avoid running in the range (i.e. running them as hard as the car is capable of doing) that creates problems. So they have done the math to determine it is better to motor around at a less than full pace than run fast and pit for new tires.

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There are plenty of series where there is more emphasis on the driver but F1 is every bit as much about engineering as it is driving.
Agree. I think F1 should remain a mixture of engineering and driver. I think the problem these days is less about the engineering overshadows the driver than it is about disparity in engineering solutions (haves and have nots). Hence, great drivers can't overcome their inferior equipment (Alonso for example). For me it is the disparity that needs to be addressed. We can all say we love competition, etc. but its no fun to watch if everyone gets stomped on a regular basis.

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Old 16 Oct 2018, 17:37 (Ref:3857146)   #286
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I think sadly, while people are happy to hand over hundreds of pounds to attend this limp wristed series it will continue to carry on, as it will on tv when for some reason tv firms are bidding for the rights to show it.

We are the ones to blame (not me personally I haven't paid a penny for F1 for 20 years, but you get my drift)

Stop going to Silverstone, stop going to the F1 crap at the NEC, stop buying merchandise and computer games, stop paying SKY for it.

it's the only way you will enforce change, otherwise lump it, it's partly your fault.
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Old 16 Oct 2018, 18:26 (Ref:3857151)   #287
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no doubt that would lead to change but everyone ceasing to spend their money in support of F1 is no guarantee that will lead to the changes many are advocating here.
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Old 16 Oct 2018, 18:36 (Ref:3857152)   #288
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I dislike this word "spice" Richard I know its not your creation but it just rubs me up the wrong way as sounding somewhat cheap...
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Old 16 Oct 2018, 18:40 (Ref:3857153)   #289
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I will still watch F1, because it’s what keeps me satisfied. I just hope they find the right solutions soon, as it is not good enough at the moment
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Old 16 Oct 2018, 20:34 (Ref:3857164)   #290
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However a three day general admission to the USA Grand Prix is $198.00 which includes two concerts…..That's amazing value don't you think ?
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Old 16 Oct 2018, 20:52 (Ref:3857166)   #291
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Based on some concerts I’ve been to that’s like getting the Grand Prix free.
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Old 16 Oct 2018, 20:59 (Ref:3857171)   #292
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However a three day general admission to the USA Grand Prix is $198.00 which includes two concerts…..That's amazing value don't you think ?
Yeah but who is performing?
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Old 16 Oct 2018, 20:59 (Ref:3857172)   #293
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I dislike this word "spice" Richard I know its not your creation but it just rubs me up the wrong way as sounding somewhat cheap...
Yeah, I know what you mean. It would be interesting to dig up the press releases by FIA/FOM (or whoever) for the announcement (if there was ever an official one) with respect to the requirement of using two different tire compounds during a race. How did they word it?

Clearly the idea for things like that is to create artificial unpredictability. When you have to do that... you know something is wrong with the series (or "product" in a commercial sense).

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Old 16 Oct 2018, 21:04 (Ref:3857173)   #294
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I think sadly, while people are happy to hand over hundreds of pounds to attend this limp wristed series it will continue to carry on, as it will on tv when for some reason tv firms are bidding for the rights to show it.

We are the ones to blame (not me personally I haven't paid a penny for F1 for 20 years, but you get my drift)

Stop going to Silverstone, stop going to the F1 crap at the NEC, stop buying merchandise and computer games, stop paying SKY for it.

it's the only way you will enforce change, otherwise lump it, it's partly your fault.
Not to meaning to be controversial/contrary to what apparently is the majority here on TT, but mayhaps Formula One carries on because it does please the millions that are supporting it. I know it fulfills all I expect from it. The grids are tighter than years ago; more cars ont the lead lap than before; the last finishers closer than before.
I know I've said it repeatedly but why anyone expects the very top class of racing to appear as a single make series when that's not it's intention escapes me. Why torture yourselves when there's many other series with the close competition you desire?
I don't torture myself by watching them just as I don't watch movies with squealing tires on sand and every crashed car exploding three times (interior, under hood/bonnet, and trunk/boot) to entertain me as I know it doesn't really work that way. 'Maybe poor examples, and an exaggeration of course, but so in principle.
As even as IndyCar has made itself, there's still the top three teams dominating year after year.....the best always does, and should, rise to the top which is exactly what F1 is all about; just much higher tech which is why it's the pinnacle.
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Old 16 Oct 2018, 21:13 (Ref:3857177)   #295
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I’ve been not watching X-factor for years hoping that’ll put a stop to it.
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Old 16 Oct 2018, 21:14 (Ref:3857178)   #296
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However a three day general admission to the USA Grand Prix is $198.00 which includes two concerts…..That's amazing value don't you think ?
€63 for a whole week at Le Mans for me....... (Oh and yes, concerts too, if I was interested.... ).
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Old 16 Oct 2018, 21:25 (Ref:3857180)   #297
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€63 for a whole week at Le Mans for me....... (Oh and yes, concerts too, if I was interested.... ).
To both of ya's....now you're talkin'.

Seriously, Ayse, one o' these days (I've been sayin' it for years) I'm gonna get over there for THE world's endurance contest...BoPing and all, just because it was what it was, like I still watch the 500....
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Old 17 Oct 2018, 10:08 (Ref:3857248)   #298
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€63 for a whole week at Le Mans for me....... (Oh and yes, concerts too, if I was interested.... ).
That's much more like it!
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Old 17 Oct 2018, 16:18 (Ref:3857320)   #299
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NThe grids are tighter than years ago; more cars ont the lead lap than before; the last finishers closer than before. )
But where's the racing? Tight grids, more cars on the lead lap and last finishers closer is meaningless, IMO, if the cars are just going around in a procession a long way off the pace they are actually capable of.

Where are the wheel to wheel battles for lap after lap that we used to get? I'd trade all your points for 2 or 3 cars just fighting tooth and nail.

Maybe I'm just suffering from rose tinted glasses or the Hamilton generation fans have jaded me too much but I just don't see the excitement like I used to.

The tech still fascinates me but I don't have to watch the races to get satisfaction from that.
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Old 17 Oct 2018, 16:19 (Ref:3857321)   #300
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Where are the wheel to wheel battles for lap after lap that we used to get?
When was this ever the case?
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