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Old 3 Apr 2008, 07:45 (Ref:2168437)   #1
jellison
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jellison has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Can someone explain the current detailed rules on the Engines?

I.e. What size (350 cu in?), I realise that have to be Pushrod V8's but as Toyota are in they can just build a Pushrod V8 to a certain spec sheet.

Are they Alloy block and heads, etc.

The Ford and Chevy lumps are they actually still related to any production equivalent engine? LS for Chevy for instance or are they blank sheet engines too?

Powe?r torque? in unrestricted amd restrictor plate races?
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Old 3 Apr 2008, 14:05 (Ref:2168699)   #2
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Originally Posted by jellison
I.e. What size (350 cu in?), I realise that have to be Pushrod V8's but as Toyota are in they can just build a Pushrod V8 to a certain spec sheet.
358ci.

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The Ford and Chevy lumps are they actually still related to any production equivalent engine? LS for Chevy for instance or are they blank sheet engines too?
Clean sheet.

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Powe?r torque? in unrestricted amd restrictor plate races?
Restrict - ~450-500bhp
UnRestrict - 750-800bhp.
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Old 3 Apr 2008, 14:34 (Ref:2168714)   #3
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Originally Posted by Matt
358ci.


Clean sheet.


Restrict - ~450-500bhp
UnRestrict - 750-800bhp.
Cool thanks.

So can anyone get hold of one of these or are the blocks heads just made for the MotorSport Teams by the manufacturers? How does that side of things work?

So my LS6 is not related to the Chevy Imapala SS that Hendricks runs then!

They make very good power for a 5.8 pushrod lump in unrestricted form then.

Huge Drop for restrictor race (surely too much considering the wight the have to move!?).

Cheers
Jon
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Old 3 Apr 2008, 14:49 (Ref:2168724)   #4
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Originally Posted by Matt
Restrict - ~450-500bhp
UnRestrict - 750-800bhp.
I would say that it is closer to 600bhp on the restricted engines, and 850bhp on the unrestricted engines.
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Old 3 Apr 2008, 14:56 (Ref:2168734)   #5
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I would say that it is closer to 600bhp on the restricted engines, and 850bhp on the unrestricted engines.
Cool. As they are very heavy those NASCAR things. How heavy? Even though they do spend must of the time at high speed so do not have to fight that weight up and down from the lower speeds that big power to weight helps with, but is alot less improtant if the mass is already up and circulating at these much higher speeds.
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Old 3 Apr 2008, 15:09 (Ref:2168739)   #6
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johntt should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Minimum weight with driver is 3400 lbs (1545kg).
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Old 3 Apr 2008, 15:15 (Ref:2168744)   #7
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Minimum weight with driver is 3400 lbs (1545kg).
Aha that is not as bad as I thought. Cool - must be fun with the full 850bhp.
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Old 3 Apr 2008, 16:06 (Ref:2168784)   #8
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AU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridAU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Most of the engine parts are custom made by the engine builders, Not manufacutres. When an engine builder finds a very good part, they send the specs to that manufacture to get that manufacures part number. With the manufactures part number on a custom made piece, it is now legal to use.

That is why there are only a few real NASCAR and truck engine builders.

Hendrick, Yates, Roush, Jasper, Gibbs*, RCR and a few others.

*Gibbs racing used the same engines, but differnt part numbers when they switched from Chevy to Toyota.
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Old 3 Apr 2008, 16:39 (Ref:2168819)   #9
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So Toyota powered by Chevy?
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Old 3 Apr 2008, 17:35 (Ref:2168851)   #10
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AU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridAU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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So Toyota powered by Chevy?
Yah that is about it.

Naw they put Toyota part numbers over the Gibbs engines.
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Old 3 Apr 2008, 22:40 (Ref:2169097)   #11
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R59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridR59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The block has to be "stock", and iron. IE: the Chevy uses the iron "SBC" block, the Ford uses the "351 whatever", Dodge uses the "Hemi", and Toyota uses the "Tundra" (their big truck) block (which the specially developed so they could enter NASCAR). I don't think it's available in the US spec Camry.

The SBC is where I'll concentrate, as I know more about it. The heads are known as "SBC2.2" which is an asymmetrical port setup, similar to that you have on your LS1, with the ports being in/ex/in/ex/in/ex/in/ex compared to the normal SBC as ex/in/in/ex/ex/in/in/ex (as used on the Nationwide motors)
The SBC2.2 is a bit of a homologation special - they don't use / haven't used it on street motors.

Cup engines are "flat tappet", no nice roller rockers/tappets here. You can have those in Nationwide.

Cup engines rev to 9200 and sometimes more! That's a lot of revs for a big hunk of iron.

Nationwide motors rev to about 8600

They say that the Toyota is a pretty good copy of a SBC!! It's not exactly rocket science!

Rob.
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Old 4 Apr 2008, 09:28 (Ref:2169318)   #12
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Excellent stuff so I am close to having a NASCAR Based engine in my car then Iron block hmmmm.

Alloy heads though?
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Old 5 Apr 2008, 22:17 (Ref:2170722)   #13
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R59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridR59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
yes.

You can buy SB2.2 heads off the shelf, CNC ported for around $6000/pair new.
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Old 7 Apr 2008, 07:58 (Ref:2171962)   #14
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Originally Posted by R59
yes.

You can buy SB2.2 heads off the shelf, CNC ported for around $6000/pair new.
Cool are they alloy?

Also any idea who / where would be the best people to get ready to go Full race Alloy Ford 302 heads?
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Old 7 Apr 2008, 15:47 (Ref:2172417)   #15
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gttouring should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
alloy heads and iron block- every part must be available to any one with a check book as per rules...
you can order through ford parts catalog, or GM performance a nascar spec engine. in parts and every thing else through suppliers or teams

and 302 alloy heads i would go roush or yates
but try australia- arent the V8s runing 5 litre engines? or are though DOHC?
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Old 7 Apr 2008, 15:56 (Ref:2172424)   #16
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bludvl_x19 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridbludvl_x19 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridbludvl_x19 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridbludvl_x19 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Yeah, us Aussies run 5.0l engines, pushrod though I'm pretty sure. Our engines are as far removed from what is available in a roadcar as possible. You can't get a 5l Holden or Ford anymore. I'll ask around for some more info for you.

Cheers,

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Old 7 Apr 2008, 16:39 (Ref:2172460)   #17
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duke_toaster should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridduke_toaster should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
The V8 Supercar engines are basically Chevy Aurora and Ford Windsor five litre lumps. 600-650 horsepower, pushrod actuated valves and injection.
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Old 7 Apr 2008, 16:43 (Ref:2172462)   #18
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bludvl_x19 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridbludvl_x19 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridbludvl_x19 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridbludvl_x19 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
The Aurora engine is no longer used, instead it is now the Holden MotorSport engine, which I believe is closer to the Windsor style-ish engine that the Fords use. But realistically, they have no link to any engine available.

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Old 7 Apr 2008, 19:52 (Ref:2172600)   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gttouring
alloy heads and iron block- every part must be available to any one with a check book as per rules...
you can order through ford parts catalog, or GM performance a nascar spec engine. in parts and every thing else through suppliers or teams

and 302 alloy heads i would go roush or yates
but try australia- arent the V8s runing 5 litre engines? or are though DOHC?
Cool on the above. Aus is 5.0 ye run to about 640bhp (so alot per litre for a 2v pushrod like NASCAR. Yep they are Pushrods too.

Who wants all that complication of loads of cams to time in - rubbish.
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Old 10 Apr 2008, 07:36 (Ref:2174304)   #20
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R59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridR59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Aussie engines are rev limited to 7500 too. That keeps the power down. They have fuel injection which helps mid-range and driveability. Yep, the Holden Engine is based on the Gen II Smallblock at 302ci/5L, and not the Gen IV (LS1/2/6) motors they run in the production cars - which are much more advanced!!

But that's off the topic.

The fact is, they get over 100bhp/litre out of a 2v/cyl pushrod engine, which is pretty amazing. They are helped by crazy high static compression ratio's, lots and lots of octane in the guzzoline, and other tips and tricks.

Until recently (must be about 10yrs, which is recent in the NASCAR timeline!), the often used 6/7port oil pumps, where 1 for pressure, 2 for scavenge, and the rest to pull a vacuum in the sump! It makes the rings seal better at high revs, and thus make more power. The downside is that it *can* pull the flamefront past the rings into the sump, together with fuel/air mix, and..... booom! There used to be some spectacular engine blow-ups on the superspeedways, mostly caused by engine wear - then sucking the flames into the sump where they ignite any fuel or oil vapour.

I run NASCAR spec composite gaskets on my Thundersaloon's 403ci motor, because even clever steel reinforced silicon gaskets get sucked in with lots of block vacuum! One benefit is that oil hopefully stays in the engine/system, and doesn't get blown out (like older Chevy V8's just love to do!)

Rob.
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Old 10 Apr 2008, 11:23 (Ref:2174446)   #21
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jellison has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Again slight off topic - but surely the Ausy seris and the US to a less extent HAVE to go to the more modern pushrods like the lsx's at some point!?

Can they seriously still be running on the base iron block from 20+yearsback in another 20 years?
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Old 10 Apr 2008, 19:13 (Ref:2174735)   #22
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I thought Chevy was using RCR's R07 block.
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Old 11 Apr 2008, 06:55 (Ref:2175012)   #23
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I thought Chevy was using RCR's R07 block.
Presume that was a retorical question? No idea - is that some old iron boat anchor too?
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Old 11 Apr 2008, 18:49 (Ref:2175463)   #24
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Can they seriously still be running on the base iron block from 20+yearsback in another 20 years?
Short answer, yes.
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Old 12 Apr 2008, 23:49 (Ref:2176128)   #25
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R59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridR59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
This is why NASCAR is so successful. The rules are simple, and the rules are stable.
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