ALMS 2010 Discussion

[Jonerz]

As for the single LMP class it really isn't that confusing. Don't any of you remember American Le Mans Series racing from the last three years? The two prototype classes intermingled with each other, not because of "big upgrades" a simple drop in minimum weight and potentially bigger air restrictors. At Sebring and PLM they will presumably run at the ACO weight and power levels.

It will be interesting to see how points scoring works for the LMP cars at those rounds. Perhaps they become special events like Le Mans?

As for GTC, bring on more manufacturers. Hopefully that comes sooner than later.

LMPC will be a nice field filler, hopefully it is a prelude to 2011 LMP2.

Chris

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

As for the single LMP class it really isn't that confusing. Don't any of you remember American Le Mans Series racing from the last three years? The two prototype classes intermingled with each other, not because of "big upgrades" a simple drop in minimum weight and potentially bigger air restrictors. At Sebring and PLM they will presumably run at the ACO weight and power levels.

It will be interesting to see how points scoring works for the LMP cars at those rounds. Perhaps they become special events like Le Mans?

As for GTC, bring on more manufacturers. Hopefully that comes sooner than later.

LMPC will be a nice field filler, hopefully it is a prelude to 2011 LMP2.

Chris

Pretty much my thoughts also!




L.P.

[raven1822]

Originally Posted by R4z3rw33n

Why am I not overly excited?
http://www.badboyvettes.com/429

I don't have any issue with that. I haven't heard a thumping V8 powered LMP since the Panoz.

[KA]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

It will be interesting to see how points scoring works for the LMP cars at those rounds. Perhaps they become special events like Le Mans?

It's the points scoring that puzzles me- take the Dyson Lolas as an example. OK, they'll score points as part of a single LMP class, racing directly against existing LMP1s, with restrictor/weight breaks to bring them to a degree of theoretical parity with the LMP1 Acuras

However, at Sebring and PLM, they're going to run to strict ACO weight/restrictor regs, as a separate LMP2 class- So how do you work out points for the ALMS LMP class? Do you take that based on a simple finishing order for the protos, irrespective of class?

In that scenario, if I'm Rob Dyson, I'm not going to be happy about having to race at Sebring and PLM with my hands tied, running a less competitive car on P2 weight/restrictors, when in championship terms I'm actually trying to compete against Acura etc in an overall points table....

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by KA

It's the points scoring that puzzles me- take the Dyson Lolas as an example. OK, they'll score points as part of a single LMP class, racing directly against existing LMP1s, with restrictor/weight breaks to bring them to a degree of theoretical parity with the LMP1 Acuras

However, at Sebring and PLM, they're going to run to strict ACO weight/restrictor regs, as a separate LMP2 class- So how do you work out points for the ALMS LMP class? Do you take that based on a simple finishing order for the protos, irrespective of class?

If I'm Rob Dyson, I'm not going to be happy about having to race at Sebring and PLM with my hands tied, running a less competitive car on P2 weight/restrictors, when in championship terms I'm actually trying to compete against Acura etc in an overall points table....

Once again, it is not that difficult! Cars that are base P-2s can be scored as such and the same will apply for P-1s for those rounds that run under seperate classes. Then for the converged rounds it can scored as a single class, with accumulative points for overall with the head to head results taking care of any ties.


L.P.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Once again, it is not that difficult! Cars that are base P-2s can be scored as such and the same will apply for P-1s for those rounds that run under seperate classes. Then for the converged rounds it can scored as a single class, with accumulative points for overall with the head to head results taking care of any ties.


L.P.

Dyson and Audi would have 0 points in LMP leaving Sebring, but maximum points in the LMP1 and LMP2 classes? Perhaps this is also a prelude to the Intercontinental trophy? Hmm... sorry, brain fart.

Chris

[Speed-King]

Don't see a problem there, it's not unusual that teams are tied after a few races early in the season, i.e. wone finishing 1st and second and the otherone the other way around after two races.
Yes, it's odd to see that after just one round, but it doesn't really create a problem.

[Jonerz]

Hey Speed-King. Ammended my post to what I believe is the actual scenario. But for everyone's benefit, here was my original post - though I doubt this will be the case, as they are scoring points in LMP1 and LMP2 not LMP.

I tend to agree with you on most things L.P. but I'm affraid I plum don't follow. Follow my random thoughts for one moment...

Theoretical Finishing Order Mobil 1 12 Hours of Sebring 2010

LMP1
1. Audi R15 TDi Tom K., Dindo, Alan
2. Acura ARX-02b Brabs, Scott Sharp, Dario
3. Peugeot 908HDi FAP Minassian, Lamy, Bourdais
4. Acura ARX-02b Pagenaud, Sato, Dixon

LMP2
1. Mazola Guy, Butch, Ben
2. Acura ARX-01c Fernandez, Diaz, Jourdain
3. Porsche RS Spyder Evo Graf, Massen, Picket
4. Mazola Marino, Dyson, Captain America

So each of those eight cars (assume for two seconds, all of the above will be competing the entire year) score points in those respective classes and thus, going into St. Pete (or whatever the next round is) you have a tie atop the LMP points standings between Mazola and Audi, then a tie for second between 02b and 01c, 908 and Spyder etc. etc.? That doesn't seem very reasonable.

Chris

[Speed-King]

@ Jonerz: I think you had it right the first time around and brain-farted afterwards

But then, you are a native speaker and I am not, so who knows?

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

@ Jonerz: I think you had it right the first time around and brain-farted afterwards

But then, you are a native speaker and I am not, so who knows?

Well, my thinking may be right, but my English is definitely not guaranteed to be. I tend to over think what I mean to say. I put too many thoughts into one sentence and it comes out disorganized and nonsensical.

I think given my scenario, the points scored at Sebring would be in LMP1 and LMP2 classes. Thus, at the second round of the championship the teams competing for a full season would have zero points towards the LMP championship. That led to the thought in my mind that Sebring and Petit therefore would allow teams to score points towards the potential Intercontinental Trophy of endurance races.

Chris

(400th post!)

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

Well, my thinking may be right, but my English is definitely not guaranteed to be. I tend to over think what I mean to say. I put too many thoughts into one sentence and it comes out disorganized and nonsensical.

I think given my scenario, the points scored at Sebring would be in LMP1 and LMP2 classes. Thus, at the second round of the championship the teams competing for a full season would have zero points towards the LMP championship. That led to the thought in my mind that Sebring and Petit therefore would allow teams to score points towards the potential Intercontinental Trophy of endurance races.

Chris

So Sebring and Petit would no longer be ALMS-rounds?!

[AndrewF31]

It is really not that difficult to understand, weight and restrictor adjustments. Not hard, nor overly expensive, especially as they have the mapping info etc.. to go back and forth from the last 2 years.

Never knew what they did to the P2s to get them closer but if it's what Horndawg mentions then it shouldn't me that much of a problem. It will hopefully keep some of the guys around and possibly bring in some others.

I wonder if the 'FLM' philosophy will work out in America a little better than in Europe, grid-wise. And if they're in the same regulations as the European FLM, who knows if they could face-off at Le Mans in a support race like the FLMs did.

The point schema is gonna be confusing.

[KA]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

So Sebring and Petit would no longer be ALMS-rounds?!

That seems unlikely..

[Jonerz]

I wouldn't say they'd no longer be ALMS rounds. GT would still score points, GTC would still score points. Heck, ACO GT1 cars would probably be welcome (if there is a GT1). IMSA would still sanction the event, but the prototype ranks would probably be jumbled a bit.

I'd like to see LMP get a name-change so that when European teams want to run in LMP1 and LMP2 configuration the IMSA/ALMS cars would be in another class, scoring points to their championship, and then a larger field overall looking for a Sebring victory - but that is just me. Similar to allowing Group C cars to enter Daytona against GTPs back in the day. LMP, LMP1, and LMP2 isn't too confusing a class structure at Sebring next year, is it?

Chris

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

Dyson and Audi would have 0 points in LMP leaving Sebring, but maximum points in the LMP1 and LMP2 classes? Perhaps this is also a prelude to the Intercontinental trophy? Hmm... sorry, brain fart.

Chris

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Don't see a problem there, it's not unusual that teams are tied after a few races early in the season, i.e. wone finishing 1st and second and the otherone the other way around after two races.
Yes, it's odd to see that after just one round, but it doesn't really create a problem.

Speed-King has my thoughts right. Both classes would be scored with the regular points structure and would carry them forward into the total overall score. Not 0 pts for the class winners, but 30 pts for Sebring etc. which would reward them for running good at the endurace rounds rather than throwing those rounds out!!


L.P.

[Jonerz]

Yeah, I don't like that as much.

Of course, I hate throwing out the rounds as well. I suppose that works. But the car that finishes third in LMP1 at Sebring next year and put a caning to the car that finished first or second in LMP2 in reliability and performance sure will have bones to pick with the rules then.

Chris

[johntt]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

As for the single LMP class it really isn't that confusing. Don't any of you remember American Le Mans Series racing from the last three years? The two prototype classes intermingled with each other, not because of "big upgrades" a simple drop in minimum weight and potentially bigger air restrictors. At Sebring and PLM they will presumably run at the ACO weight and power levels.

It will be interesting to see how points scoring works for the LMP cars at those rounds. Perhaps they become special events like Le Mans?

As for GTC, bring on more manufacturers. Hopefully that comes sooner than later.

LMPC will be a nice field filler, hopefully it is a prelude to 2011 LMP2.

Chris

That is exactly what this is, as well as a way if increasing the size of the grid. IIRC the FLM cars are 2011 LMP2 compliant out of the box.

Come 2011 with P1 cars running at present P2 speeds having GT3 cars in the field would be viable.

[Acid09]

Wow, the ALMS is really working hard to commit suicide, these new regs are the biggest piece of BS I´ve seen in a long time.

Single LMP class = Come on?!
Formula LM cars = You got to be kidding me?
Porsche Cup cars = Seriously?

I thought the whole deal of having the Porsche cup cars run in the ALMS was very much ridiculous but this is even worse. What's next? How about Spec Racer Ford's...they´re LMP-ish..right? Or maybe somebody wants to enter his old VW Golf? Appareantly everything will do to fill the field.

The ACO concept of four classes works absolutely fine as the LMS shows. The ALMS wants to fix their very own mistakes by changing the regs to their liking.I would not just be not surprised to see Acura leave after this season but applaud them...this series is really turning out to be a joke in endurance racing.

And it once was a very good series.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

Yeah, I don't like that as much.

Of course, I hate throwing out the rounds as well. I suppose that works. But the car that finishes third in LMP1 at Sebring next year and put a caning to the car that finished first or second in LMP2 in reliability and performance sure will have bones to pick with the rules then.

Chris

Come to think about it, there might be more problems:
Imagine the Sebring P1 podium is completely occupied by European guest starters, but there are no strong European teams in P2, then the strongest American P1 car could've beaten all the regular all season long opponents but still be at a disadvantage towards the "P2"-winner.

That could, however, be solved with a no points for guests rule.

[Duff_44]

Here's how I think it will work rules-wise:

Enduros: LMP1, LMP2, and GT2 all run to the ACO rulebook (i.e. 1.6m wings in LMP2)

Sprint races: LMP1 and GT2 run to the ACO rulebook. LMP2 runs to ACO rulebook except air restrictors increased to those used in 2008, which are ~5% larger in area, and LMP1/LMP2 run as one class.

And for the points system skeptics, I'll propose a counter-scenario. Let's say Dyson wins P2 at Sebring and neither Acura finishes... then he's got a 30-pt lead in LMP going into St Pete (or whatever Rd 2 is). I think he'll enjoy that...

Necessity has bred this, and I think it's the right way to go, although I might have gone with straight GT3 instead of the GT Challenge class. I'd also give the LM Challenge cars a little more HP, maybe 500 or so.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Single LMP class = Come on?!

I understand your beefs with most. But this complaint I just don't get. I mean honestly. Who were the two biggest rivals 2006-2008? Audi vs. Penske Porsche. Why? LMP2 and LMP1 were eseentially one class. All this single class is is a name change.

I understand your fear of LMPC and GTC. I cringe at the thought of spec cars in my beloved ALMS. However, even then both of these classes seem very much to be preludes to 2011 (particularly LMPC).

No, the sky is not falling. And yes, the ALMS is very well placed for the future.

Chris

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Duff_44

And for the points system skeptics, I'll propose a counter-scenario. Let's say Dyson wins P2 at Sebring and neither Acura finishes... then he's got a 30-pt lead in LMP going into St Pete (or whatever Rd 2 is). I think he'll enjoy that...

It doesn't make sporting sense though. Audi thrashes the field, wins 30 points. The Dyson Mazola coughs across the line, just within 70% of the Audi's performance and it gets 30 points for an LMP2 win? Yeah, that is great for Dyson, but innately unbalanced and unfair.

Chris

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

I understand your beefs with most. But this complaint I just don't get. I mean honestly. Who were the two biggest rivals 2006-2008? Audi vs. Penske Porsche. Why? LMP2 and LMP1 were eseentially one class. All this single class is is a name change.

Chris

And that was exactly the mistake that caused LMP numbers to drop. The ALMS chose to mess with the class regulations to make it more exciting and please Porsche, causing all privateer LMP2 entrants (the guys these class was made for) to leave.

That caused their dependency for factory efforts which has put the series into its current state. The ALMS has never understood that endurance racing has to be backed by privateers, not manufacturers. That's why the LMS does so well...you have almost no manufacturer efforts there.

The ALMS is set for the future? If Acura leaves, there`s nothing left... the series is grasping for the final straws, wrapping it in marketing BS.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Duff_44

Here's how I think it will work rules-wise:

Enduros: LMP1, LMP2, and GT2 all run to the ACO rulebook (i.e. 1.6m wings in LMP2)

Sprint races: LMP1 and GT2 run to the ACO rulebook. LMP2 runs to ACO rulebook except air restrictors increased to those used in 2008, which are ~5% larger in area, and LMP1/LMP2 run as one class.

And for the points system skeptics, I'll propose a counter-scenario. Let's say Dyson wins P2 at Sebring and neither Acura finishes... then he's got a 30-pt lead in LMP going into St Pete (or whatever Rd 2 is). I think he'll enjoy that...

Necessity has bred this, and I think it's the right way to go, although I might have gone with straight GT3 instead of the GT Challenge class. I'd also give the LM Challenge cars a little more HP, maybe 500 or so.

ALMS 2010

LMP & LMPC

These classes is being introduced ahead of the ACO’s 2011 defacto merge of the prototype classes with their new engine regs. And the introduction of a pure stock production low hp engined class as the new P-2. It looks to me as a proactive move on the part of the ALMS which will also allow the Formula Le Mans cars to come over for some of the rounds also!


GT & GTC

Here we have the loss of GT-1 and the bid by the big 4 (Porsche, Ferrari, GM, AM) to continue to have a class that they can develop their premier GT cars, which does not occur with the Rats vision of GT-1 as a micro class on the world stage.

So that leaves us with GT-2 as the main GT class world wide. Not all teams are going to be able or want to compete with factory squads.Which leaves us with the new GTC class that has been running in the ALMS this year, which so far has worked much better than I thought it would. Also in the release is the statement that other GT-3s will be bought in to the class in the future, which will provide a good entry class for privateers in the ALMS GT class.


As to more hp for LMPC and more GT-3s, I think by 2011 that may come to pass. But it all depends on how these classes perform in 2010 together as a whole I believe.





L.P.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Acid09

And that was exactly the mistake that caused LMP numbers to drop. The ALMS chose to mess with the class regulations to make it more exciting and please Porsche, causing all privateer LMP2 entrants (the guys these class was made for) to leave.

That caused their dependency for factory efforts which has put the series into its current state. The ALMS has never understood that endurance racing has to be backed by privateers, not manufacturers. That's why the LMS does so well...you have almost no manufacturer efforts there.

The ALMS is set for the future? If Acura leaves, there`s nothing left... the series is grasping for the final straws, wrapping it in marketing BS.

Hog Wash!!!!




L.P.