Should IMSA return to just GT's?

[JAG]

Originally Posted by 6157

And people wonder why sportscar fans are titled arrogant and self-entitled.

It's about dealing with the realities of the current sportscar scene and what I would do if it was my money.

IMO there's far greater value in being a bit part player in the biggest events than winning the likes of Algarve.

When you look over the past 20 years pretty much the whole of the Group C and IMSA GTP grids are fondly remembered and even smaller privateer cars have become iconic.

By contrast how many remember the FIA SCC or US WSC cars?

If your a Drayson, Rebellion, Strakka, Highcroft etc. you need to be competing alongside Audi, Peugeot, Aston Martin and other manufactuers to promote your team, brand and sponsors.

Perhaps it will be the case the LMS and ALMS become designated feeder series to the ILMC.

[Purist]

JAG, there are a number of critical differences between the US and Europe.

Forgive me for not being sure which flag that is under your avatar, but suffice it to say, you probably can get to ALL of the LMS venues within a day. You might not even have to fly to do that, and the trains can likely get you within easy distance of the tracks themselves. This is NOT really possible in the US. For one, flying is still expensive compared with driving. Then you have to consider layovers and lead times in getting to the airport to fly anywhere. It's likely more convenient to drive in the end. In addition, if you want to get closer to the track when you fly, that probably means more connecting flights and having to go through more major hubs, or if you depart from flying at a major hub, you have to rent a car, deal with the big city traffic, and then drive another handful of hours to get to the track itself anyway.

This means you can get FAR MORE people to races if you have more, well spaced, races around the country. Also, if your doesn't have a decent number of races in this country, there is NO media momentum, not even compared to the little we get as things are, and your series gets COMPLETELY lost in oblivion because it's just not on often enough to maintain a presence here.

So, as a team owner, getting my face and team out there more is a way to get myself that much more exposure. Also, if the factory teams are more apt to show up for the big events, and hog the limelight while doing so, I'm actually more apt to get greater exposure at the "lesser" events. It also shows my greater level of commitment to viewers and potential sponsors, which can't be a bad thing.

[Purist]

On a personal note, I want to see top-tier sportscar racing at as many of the major road courses as possible, and maybe a few of the top street circuits as well. Obviously, visiting all of them is not terribly likely even in the best of situations for the sport, but they can still manage to get to a fair few of them into a given season.

For me, the top-echelon venues for the US/Canada are:
1. Sebring
2. Road Atlanta
3. Road America
4. Mosport
5. Watkins Glen (I know, ISC owns it)
6. Laguna Seca
7. Sears Point
8. Lime Rock
9. Mid Ohio
10. Portland
11. Long Beach

The 2nd-tier venues for me are:
1. VIR
2. St. Pete or Miami
3. St. Jovite
4. Belle Isle
5. Miller
6. Cleveland
7. Barber
8. Bluegrass, KY*
9. High Plains, CO*

And then it might be nice if it worked out at some point to have Mexico City, Brainerd, and/or Seattle in there, but I'm not expecting anything, just putting them out there.

In my mind, the European core is:
1. Monza
2. Spa
3. Brands Hatch GP or Sllverstone (personally prefer Brands)
4. Le Mans (of course)
5. Nurburgring
6. Algarve (for Iberia)

The 2nd tier is:
1. Brno
2. Zandvoort
3. Norisring
4. Mugello
5. Jerez or Jarama

And don't complain about certain markets, because we have yet to see what good promotion might do for places like Iberia, or especially Italy. So until we do know, keep your stones in your pockets, please.

And look at the bright side, I didn't throw anything REALLY obscure out there, like Summit Point or Grobnik.

[6157]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Sebring and PLM are part of what is now the ALMS, and would become part of the IMSA GT series. (NO ALMS) No prototypes, full divorce from LM. If International GT cars wanted to race, they could.

There's no reason they couldn't run to ACO GT rules to allow those teams to be eligible for Le Mans invites.

Although I don't know if the arrogance of the ACO would allow them to concede to a national series.

[mountainstar]

I think people overcomplicate uncomplicated things.

Your average sports car fan likes the longer races, the exotic cars and prototypes and the typical road course tracks that lend themselves to spending a weekend at. If a professional sports car series wants to exist, it has to provide that entertainment.

Prototypes are great and it's real easy. Stop dickering with the rules. Come up with a decent set of rules and leave them alone for a while. Let the natural order of competition take over and decide what is obsolete or not.

Also get rid of the many classes. One GT class, one prototype class.

[TWK]

Originally Posted by Purist

JAG, there are a number of critical differences between the US and Europe.

Forgive me for not being sure which flag that is under your avatar, but suffice it to say, you probably can get to ALL of the LMS venues within a day.

Flag of England, actually.

[TWK]

I love the way the idea that manufacturers don't stay around, and privateers do, gets thrown around so casually. The record doesn't really support it.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by courageous

IMSA going GT only, what are people suggesting for Sebring/PLM?

A. The season long top class plays 2nd fiddle to international cars (might work for a couple of years but then ALMS guys would get fed up of losing coverage in 'their big races')

B. These races are ALMS so no prototypes (divorcing from the international races)

C. These races are ILMC so no ALMS points (losing the 2 biggest US races from the calendar)

A) Second Fiddle? GT has been added to ILMC at the behest of the manufacturers. If you wanna to run Prototype, well you have (2) races in America with large attendances, something the LMS has been unable to show for all its events BUT Le Mans. There's nothing guarantee they'll have large paying crowds as many ALMS races do and attendance was still going up in 2008.

B) Not really, maybe do a deal with Ratel to combine a Round or Two of the European GT2 Championship, so you have 40-45 cars? Door to Door, Wheel Banging action. LMP save for '07 and '08 has been woeful. Yes you do have spectacular finishes in both '09 and '10 but just two years ago, there was a 8 car battle for the front and at Petit in '08 a 10 car battle though the diesels are clearing in their own world when you have fast corners + long straights.

C) Why wouldn't you have ALMS points? That's how they scored it for this year's Sebring, if you were going to be in the ALMS full time, you got points. Peugeot did not get any points. Drayson got the points for finishing first despite not doing so on the track. You could still earn GT points and since the ILMC will have its own points, you score twice. So in fact you could have more ALMS GT teams do Le Mans, why not?

[6157]

Originally Posted by JAG

It's about dealing with the realities of the current sportscar scene and what I would do if it was my money.

If you don't support those who support you, you might have one less option to spend your money on.

No support for the events means no events. And right now, the ALMS can't afford to be picky about where they race.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by TWK

I love the way the idea that manufacturers don't stay around, and privateers do, gets thrown around so casually. The record doesn't really support it.

Yes the record doesn't support it. The record should read, series were not proactive and also tried to play the roll of "Good Guy Series" with the rich guys not willing to spend more vs "Bad Old Factories" with bottom-less pockets.

As I said before, I don't subscribe to the idea that OEM's take all the air out of the room. Only if you let them. They will take and take, until there is no more. As you have stated dozens of times, if ALMS was for "The Fans" then you don't worry about the factories, the series has a large fan base, good tv, the factories will stay as long as they can win.

For the rest of you -

"Class Wins" were largely PR speak, you can't be seriously thinking both Acura and Porsche were strictly thinking about LMP2? That wasn't a complete after thought, but if you win overall, you get full LMP2 point anyway. The headlines don't read "Audi Wins LMP1 class, Porsche win LMP2" it reads "Porsche wins Sebring overall, makes history". That makes Audi looks like a looser, which ****ed off Dr. Ullrich like you wouldn't believe.

Also LMP2 was in spirit for Private Teams, but had no hard fast rule saying factories couldn't enter, so that's their OWN fault (the ACO). They just assumed all the heavy spenders would run LMP1, but it looks like ACO made a rulebook and didn't read it like Porsche and Acura did.

Porsche made the Spyder almost 100% for the American Market and LMP2 for The ALMS, not for the LMS and not for Le Mans. When demand called for Le Mans, they made the changes to the car. Acura said, hey we can do that too.

I remember back in 2007-2008 and some of the whining on this very board (and the old ALMS forums) about "LMP2's shouldn't be winning overall", "It defeats the spirit of the ACO's rules for the class, what about the "little guys"?

Now its Okay to combined classes -

Well the "Little Guys" could have bought a Porsche. Oh its Million Dollars? Sorry but that's the price you pay for a car that can WIN and not BREAK. Penske and Porsche had sorted all the bugs out by mid season 2007, I don't think they had another mechanical DNF since Sebring in 2007.

You could buy an Acura, you think seriously if you're a well prepared team like Duncan's operation you couldn't get support from HPD and Wirth? That's ridiculous of course you could. Strakka is a privateer team, bought 2 year old Acura from Fernandez, updated it to "C" status and has been the dominate car in the LMS, winning Le Mans, setting a distance record for LMP2 in the process.

That's what happens when you have well-engineered cars and engines and not "Survival of the fittest" or "Last Man Standing" as so frequently happened at Le Mans with LMP2 (or 675).

Back on topic -

Why is so many people concerned about loosing ACO approval? They aren't that stupid. They still know despite having larger LMP fields in 2009 and 2010, that the ALMS is the superior series. Ask any driver that's driven in the LMS and driven in the ALMS. I'm proud of that fact that even though Europe is considered ground zero for Sports Car Racing, that both European Fans and Drivers agree this is the best run, best attended and most competitive series week in and week out.

Of course they are trying their best to destroy it at times. Maybe that's harsh, how about slow to react?

[6157]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

"Class Wins" were largely PR speak, you can't be seriously thinking both Acura and Porsche were strictly thinking about LMP2? That wasn't a complete after thought, but if you win overall, you get full LMP2 point anyway. The headlines don't read "Audi Wins LMP1 class, Porsche win LMP2" it reads "Porsche wins Sebring overall, makes history". That makes Audi looks like a looser, which ****ed off Dr. Ullrich like you wouldn't believe.

All the more reason to eliminate the concept of the "overall win". Let the results show who completed the most laps and finished first but PR-wise only classes should be referenced as wins. If Audi PR wants to stroke their ego with it, let them, but don't let the series do the PR for them. Class wins should be recognized equally and not regarded as second-tier to the "overall winner"

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by 6157

All the more reason to eliminate the concept of the "overall win". Let the results show who completed the most laps and finished first but PR-wise only classes should be referenced as wins. If Audi PR wants to stroke their ego with it, let them, but don't let the series do the PR for them. Class wins should be recognized equally and not regarded as second-tier to the "overall winner"

So Multi-Class Road Racing should have its own explained nuances that can't be dealt with in a 15 second sound bite?

"Sigh" but these are the reasons why its hard for the media to grasp Sports Car Racing, this is more like what some call the liberal mindset that "everybody wins". I don't subscribe to that at all. I think Penske and Porsche should get full credit for beating the car that should win a race but doesn't. Just like Intersport and Drayson should get slammed for not taking advantage of their speed @ Utah.

Explain the classes, explain the differences, but it should be all on the table.

The media (Speed) only keeps the clip of the interview with the overall winner for Speed Report. There was no need to bother with class victory nonsense when nobody else in the media cares.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Purist

JAG, there are a number of critical differences between the US and Europe.

Forgive me for not being sure which flag that is under your avatar, but suffice it to say, you probably can get to ALL of the LMS venues within a day. You might not even have to fly to do that, and the trains can likely get you within easy distance of the tracks themselves. This is NOT really possible in the US. For one, flying is still expensive compared with driving. Then you have to consider layovers and lead times in getting to the airport to fly anywhere. It's likely more convenient to drive in the end. In addition, if you want to get closer to the track when you fly, that probably means more connecting flights and having to go through more major hubs, or if you depart from flying at a major hub, you have to rent a car, deal with the big city traffic, and then drive another handful of hours to get to the track itself anyway.

This means you can get FAR MORE people to races if you have more, well spaced, races around the country. Also, if your doesn't have a decent number of races in this country, there is NO media momentum, not even compared to the little we get as things are, and your series gets COMPLETELY lost in oblivion because it's just not on often enough to maintain a presence here.

So, as a team owner, getting my face and team out there more is a way to get myself that much more exposure. Also, if the factory teams are more apt to show up for the big events, and hog the limelight while doing so, I'm actually more apt to get greater exposure at the "lesser" events. It also shows my greater level of commitment to viewers and potential sponsors, which can't be a bad thing.

To answer your first point the number of UK citizens who go overseas to visit any motor race outside of Le Mans and possibly F1 Spa is so tiny as to not be measurable.

In fact I don't believe on site spectators are even a factor in terms of sponsor exposure and such rather they provide a nice background as opposed to empty grandstands.

Some in the US seem to believe because we don't have NASCAR hogging the limelight road racing and rallying receive great coverage.

The fact is even F1 is limited to a couple of pages in the paper after a race and even that tends to be driver focused pieces.

Outside of a UK winner/World Champion everything from Le Mans, WRC, WTCC, BTCC, DTM etc. recieves a paragragh or two and is shunted to specialist sports or minority channels.

The one time the LMS has had any sort of wider public profile is when Audi and Peugeot went head to head in 2008. They ensured the grandstands looked respectable with complementary tickets and advertising in addition to using the series to promote their brand in the media and press.

It's hardly scientific but I would argue a great many younger car enthusiasts in Europe and the US are more familiar with Super GT than either the LMS or ALMS simply from YouTube and videogames.

In recent years the Le Mans 24Hr and Nuburgring 24Hr have joined the list of 'cool' events not because of their great history but due to featuring in the likes of Gran Turismo and Forza.

How many people in the ACO sportscar world even consider Super GT a rival yet this is the series attracting younger fans and why the ILMC is needed to ensure ACO racing puts together exceptional grids and events.

IMO all motorsport outside of F1 and NASCAR should forget about cracking the mainstream and instead focus on enthusiasts through targeted marketing and the use of new media to bring up a new generation of fans.

It's only my opinion but if you competing to promote your brand, sponsors or to be a part of sportcar history you have to be part of the big show alongside manufactuers otherwise you aren't even going to make a ripple.

...................at least these discussions show people care, even if we don't all agree.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by JAG

To answer your first point the number of UK citizens who go overseas to visit any motor race outside of Le Mans and possibly F1 Spa is so tiny as to not be measurable.

In fact I don't believe on site spectators are even a factor in terms of sponsor exposure and such rather they provide a nice background as opposed to empty grandstands.

Some in the US seem to believe because we don't have NASCAR hogging the limelight road racing and rallying receive great coverage.

The fact is even F1 is limited to a couple of pages in the paper after a race and even that tends to be driver focused pieces.

Outside of a UK winner/World Champion everything from Le Mans, WRC, WTCC, BTCC, DTM etc. recieves a paragragh or two and is shunted to specialist sports or minority channels.

The one time the LMS has had any sort of wider public profile is when Audi and Peugeot went head to head in 2008. They ensured the grandstands looked respectable with complementary tickets and advertising in addition to using the series to promote their brand in the media and press.

It's hardly scientific but I would argue a great many younger car enthusiasts in Europe and the US are more familiar with Super GT than either the LMS or ALMS simply from YouTube and videogames.

In recent years the Le Mans 24Hr and Nuburgring 24Hr have joined the list of 'cool' events not because of their great history but due to featuring in the likes of Gran Turismo and Forza.

How many people in the ACO sportscar world even consider Super GT a rival yet this is the series attracting younger fans and why the ILMC is needed to ensure ACO racing puts together exceptional grids and events.

IMO all motorsport outside of F1 and NASCAR should forget about cracking the mainstream and instead focus on enthusiasts through targeted marketing and the use of new media to bring up a new generation of fans.

It's only my opinion but if you competing to promote your brand, sponsors or to be a part of sportcar history you have to be part of the big show alongside manufactuers otherwise you aren't even going to make a ripple.

...................at least these discussions show people care, even if we don't all agree.

I fully agree.

LMS should be slammed but nobody in the media is doing it, so then you don't have a wave of fans announcing their disappointment, they could care less. CART/IRL/Indy Car (save for Versus and ABC) and ALMS buy time on Network and Cable TV. So the question should be, if this is all the media LMS going to do, what are they going do with ILMC and are they expecting the PR staffs of this large companies to do the job race promoters and the series should be doing?

Maybe they should hire the guys at the BBC that do Top Gear to do some production for them.

[JAG]

In a word yes.

The ACO are expecting manufactuers, teams and sponsors to do the PR work for the ILMC.

That being said the inclusion of Le Mans in the actual series is probably the biggest PR boost and greatest show of commitment the ACO could provide.

All the time Le Mans was not part of the ILMC it gave the impression the ACO considered the series an opportunity to boost Le Mans itself and nothing more, now you feel they want a strong 'World Championship' for sportscar racing.

[HORNDAWG]

Hmm, that is not how I see it! To me it says, forget the other series, ALMS & LMS, come race in this series and we gaurantee a Le Mans entry.






L.P.

[6157]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

So Multi-Class Road Racing should have its own explained nuances that can't be dealt with in a 15 second sound bite?

"Sigh" but these are the reasons why its hard for the media to grasp Sports Car Racing, this is more like what some call the liberal mindset that "everybody wins". I don't subscribe to that at all. I think Penske and Porsche should get full credit for beating the car that should win a race but doesn't. Just like Intersport and Drayson should get slammed for not taking advantage of their speed @ Utah.

Explain the classes, explain the differences, but it should be all on the table.

The media (Speed) only keeps the clip of the interview with the overall winner for Speed Report. There was no need to bother with class victory nonsense when nobody else in the media cares.

If the media doesn't care, they're not going to bother with that 15 second sound clip.

When did it become en vogue for the 2nd tier prototype class to be able to compete for overall wins? LMP 2 should be LMP 2 not LMP 1A. If you do that then you won't have to worry about a P 2 exploiting shorter circuits.

It's not about "everyone wins", it's about recognizing the ONE TEAM who is THE BEST in their class, isn't that what it should be about? Hell, at Miller, Speed DIDN'T EVEN COVER PC, GT, OR GTC TAKING THE CHECKERED FLAG. What a slap in the face to those teams. One of the few things I'll agree with you is it shouldn't become little league, where everyone gets a trophy, but don't you think the winning team should at least be recognized? They'll never get the recognition they deserve as long as they're a "second-tier" winner to the overall winner.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by 6157

It's not about "everyone wins", it's about recognizing the ONE TEAM who is THE BEST in their class, isn't that what it should be about? Hell, at Miller, Speed DIDN'T EVEN COVER PC, GT, OR GTC TAKING THE CHECKERED FLAG. What a slap in the face to those teams. One of the few things I'll agree with you is it shouldn't become little league, where everyone gets a trophy, but don't you think the winning team should at least be recognized? They'll never get the recognition they deserve as long as they're (portrayed by the media as) a "second-tier" winner to the overall winner.

That I agree with!



L.P.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Hmm, that is not how I see it! To me it says, forget the other series, ALMS & LMS, come race in this series and we gaurantee a Le Mans entry.






L.P.

Wait, did YOU really just critisize the ACO??

Hey, can anyone confirm that for me, did HE really just do that? Someone pinch me, I must be dreaming....

[courageous]

It is a bit complicated, but a system I have heard used (vln?) is award points in each class depending on number of entries (ie competitiveness) & the overall champion is whoever has the most points, regardless of class.

3rd in a 20 car class 3 is therefore seen as a bigger achievement than winning in a 3 car class 1

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Wait, did YOU really just critisize the ACO??

Hey, can anyone confirm that for me, did HE really just do that? Someone pinch me, I must be dreaming....

Umm, yes you did! Umm, yes you did!
But it is not the first time, nor I imagine the last for that to occur.



L.P.

[dj4monie]

I don't have a problem with separate Championships, but for 3 seasons what we effectively ended up with is a Single LMP class which was somewhat intentional by the ACO going back to 675.

I think it would have continued beyond 2008 if suggested changes came to pass much earlier and we wouldn't be talking about a much reduced in quality LMP class.

The problems with coverage can be laid at the doorstep of Wheeler TV, which Jim Roller is none to happy to get criticism, he says he's doing his best. I wouldn't say Intersport is better either, its about the same, some people said worst.

I think the problem becomes what to cover and how important is it. This why technology should be embraced instead of explained away as being too expensive. With this fancy Flash T&S they just released, they can use multi-camera angles, in-car cameras, team radios, etc. We should be taking this to the next level.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Hmm, that is not how I see it! To me it says, forget the other series, ALMS & LMS, come race in this series and we gaurantee a Le Mans entry.






L.P.

Well that gets back to the route of the discussion.

It's conceivable 3-4 LMS rounds could eventually count towards the ILMC so there isn't a conflict of interest, they'll be one and the same.

The only issue is how the ALMS fits into this and whether they run a shorter calendar, adopt GT's only and slot the ILMC around this or carry on as is.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by courageous

It is a bit complicated, but a system I have heard used (vln?) is award points in each class depending on number of entries (ie competitiveness) & the overall champion is whoever has the most points, regardless of class.

3rd in a 20 car class 3 is therefore seen as a bigger achievement than winning in a 3 car class 1

Actually systems like that were used for a long time, notably in the old World Championship of Makes, Deutsche Rennsport Meisterschaft, ETCC and BTCC when they had a multiclass format... and they were heavily critized for being way too complicated...

yes, VLN still has that system, but VLN is such a special series that it is kinda okay there, but I wouldn't like to see it in any of the really big series as it opens cans, no make that barrells of worms....

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by TWK

I love the way the idea that manufacturers don't stay around, and privateers do, gets thrown around so casually. The record doesn't really support it.

Here are the 6 teams from the inaugural ALMS season that have competed in ALMS this year:

Dyson, Intersport, Risi, Alex Job, Corvette, TRG

http://www.americanlemans.com/primar...esults|sr|1999
http://www.americanlemans.com/primary1.php?cat=results

courageous:
It is a bit complicated, but a system I have heard used (vln?) is award points in each class depending on number of entries (ie competitiveness) & the overall champion is whoever has the most points, regardless of class.

3rd in a 20 car class 3 is therefore seen as a bigger achievement than winning in a 3 car class 1

You just described how NASCAR Weekly Racing works. What'd you get is big teams would enter a 2nd backup car that would go around, complete a lap, and then park, solely because the team car would get more points for finishing 1st in a 17-car field than finishing 1st in a 16-car field, and that'd help him win this championship against people on other tracks (classes) that he wouldn't be competing directly against.