Aasa & Cams

[MrX]

I am hearing that there is about to be some annoucement in regards to the future of one of them, anyone know anything?

[EDA82]

A story in this week's AA claims that CAMS is taking the AASA to court over the use of the title "Australian Rally Championship".

[MPA]

Ah, if its in AA it must be true....

AA does for the truth as Genghis Khan did for foreign policy.

Anyway, let the two sides spend a bucket load of members / entrants money on silly legal disputes. Real clever stuff, not.

[NewsStalker]

When will the fools at CAMS stop wasting their members money?

Australian courts have already ruled on the use of terms such as this - providing AASA (or anyone else for that matter) do NOT represent it as the CAMS Australian Rally Championship, they have a legal right to use the term. And, according to the AASA web site, this is just what they are doing - it is the AASA Australian Rally Championship ( http://australianautosportalliance.com/aasa/ ).

What are they trying to achieve (besides wasting money? Or are they spending with barristers and solicitors who are 'special people'?)

[Uncle Cranker]

Originally Posted by MPA

Ah, if its in AA it must be true....

AA does for the truth as Genghis Khan did for foreign policy.

Anyway, let the two sides spend a bucket load of members / entrants money on silly legal disputes. Real clever stuff, not.

Interestingly MPA, CAMS are the ones bringing this action.
With their track record in relation to legal challenges/action, if I were a member I'd resign, before more buckets of money are wasted.

Interestingly, CAMS only made a trade mark application for the " Australian Rally Championship" in Nov 2007.

Clicky here for more.


One might surmise that in a very short time-frame prior to Nov 07 there was some knowledge that the aforementioned, previously unregistered championship was under potential threat.

And would a scramble to register the series name (that could be considered as previously not cared about) be viewed as a knee jerk reaction?



If I may so bold as to draw the analogy of an only child, suddenly confronted with a new sibling.

This younger sibling, for reasons unknown to many, is all of a sudden very inquisitive, and quite clever and astute.
Even possibly mature beyond its tender years.


When you are the only kid in the sandbox, you don't need to write your name on any of the toys.
But when it comes time to share, you can't bear to part with any of them, even if the younger sibling is happy to only play with the smaller, older toys.....


One might expect to one day see a report card for the older sibling that states:


" Does not play well with others "


If any of this actually happened........

[MPA]

Originally Posted by Uncle Cranker

This younger sibling, for reasons unknown to many, is all of a sudden very inquisitive, and quite clever and astute.

Even possibly mature beyond its tender years.

But when it comes time to share, you can't bear to part with any of them, even if the younger sibling is happy to only play with the smaller, older toys.....

Hmmmmmm. But the younger sibling actually owns something of value to the older kid.

The little brat owns a couple of race tracks.

Like most little brothers, you cant go toe to toe with the your big brother. But you can make him bleed when he's not looking.

We live in interesting times.

[trogladyte]

CAMS took on someone once before and lost. what makes them think they can win this time ?

[NewsStalker]

Maybe this time they *think* they have personal possessions (such as houses, cars etc) protected.

But - there again - they may not be right either.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

Maybe this time they *think* they have personal possessions (such as houses, cars etc) protected.

But - there again - they may not be right either.

While I am sure to be painted as a CAMS crony for even suggesting this...

If a new organasition say called the International Football Association started up a professional football competition, and called it the "IFA Australian Football League", do you really think the AFL wouldn't sue them?

The series organisers could have called their series anything, National Rally Championship, Australian Rally Series, anything at all, but they have chosen to use an title in existing usage and cling to the technicality of the 'AASA' bit and say, 'but look, it has AASA in front of it'.

Seriously, this court case has been coming for a while now. If it wasn't the Australian Rally Championship the court case would have occurred over another title. We almost had this situation last year with an attempt to revive Australian Touring Car Championship.

There is too much bad blood between the two sides for this to be completely co-incidence, and I would almost be ready to believe that both sides WANT the court confrontation.

But by all means, stampede me and tell me exactly what you think I am full of.

[trogladyte]

who was it that tried to claim the words "Grand Prix" as his own but it all came to nothing? maybe this is a similar situation.....a Rally championship in Australia... hence Australian rally championship no matter who runs it

[inpitlane]

Originally Posted by trogladyte

who was it that tried to claim the words "Grand Prix" as his own but it all came to nothing? maybe this is a similar situation.....a Rally championship in Australia... hence Australian rally championship no matter who runs it

CAMS action against AASA is not a trademark or a copyright issue, it's under the provisions of "passing off' CAMS believes it has evidence from several teams, event promoters, manufacturers and even Government departments where the people concerned were under the impression that the AASA series was the long running "official" ARC. The "confusion" is pretty easy to avoid as all AASA has to do is put a disclaimer on all written material saying something along the lines of: " The AASA Australian Rally Championship is in no way connected with or affiliated with the "Australian Rally Championship" as run under the auspices of CAMS and the FIA"

[mmciau]

Originally Posted by Uncle Cranker

Interestingly MPA, CAMS are the ones bringing this action.
With their track record in relation to legal challenges/action, if I were a member I'd resign, before more buckets of money are wasted.

Interestingly, CAMS only made a trade mark application for the " Australian Rally Championship" in Nov 2007.

Clicky here for more.


One might surmise that in a very short time-frame prior to Nov 07 there was some knowledge that the aforementioned, previously unregistered championship was under potential threat.

And would a scramble to register the series name (that could be considered as previously not cared about) be viewed as a knee jerk reaction?



If I may so bold as to draw the analogy of an only child, suddenly confronted with a new sibling.

This younger sibling, for reasons unknown to many, is all of a sudden very inquisitive, and quite clever and astute.
Even possibly mature beyond its tender years.


When you are the only kid in the sandbox, you don't need to write your name on any of the toys.
But when it comes time to share, you can't bear to part with any of them, even if the younger sibling is happy to only play with the smaller, older toys.....


One might expect to one day see a report card for the older sibling that states:


" Does not play well with others "


If any of this actually happened........

Very 'insightful' there UC

In this case I'd suggest the 'sibling' has different DNA !!

Mike

[EDA82]

Originally Posted by MPA

Ah, if its in AA it must be true....

AA does for the truth as Genghis Khan did for foreign policy.

Anyway, let the two sides spend a bucket load of members / entrants money on silly legal disputes. Real clever stuff, not.

Well, the article in AA has comments from both Graham Fountain from CAMS and Mick Ronke from the AASA so what's the issue with truth? Or are you suggesting that AA just attributed quotes to people without their knowledge?

[NewsStalker]

Falcadore and inpitlane - inall of the AASA's advertising of this series, it is very clearly labelled the 'AASA Australian Rally Championship' - there is no confusion whatsoever as to whose rally championship it is.


As to the football analogy - well - what can I say - The IFA Australian Football League - yep - that one even sounds like AFL so there must be a case there. Except for one very small item missing - the AFL use a completely different name in ALL of their advertising - AFL not Australian Football League (even though that is what it stands for. Their whole branding is done around three letters - which, if I'm not mistaken, have been trademarked - therefore they HAVE some protection against anyone else using AFL.

Unfortunately CAMS do NOT have this protection because, as pointed out before, the term Australian Rally Championship is not and cannot be trademarked as it is a generic term (incidentally, it was Ron Walker who attempted to sue A1 GP for the use of the term Grand Prix claiming that the Australian Grand Prix Corporation owned the term - he very very quickly stopped the whole line of this course of action because he could not even take it to court without it being ruled a frovolous action - MotoGP, Superbikes, athletic, power boats etc etc ALL use the term Grand Prix for their events).

The ONLY course of action CAMS can try to take action is IF AASA present their championshiup as the CAMS Australian Rally Championship - which they are not doing.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

Falcadore and inpitlane - inall of the AASA's advertising of this series, it is very clearly labelled the 'AASA Australian Rally Championship' - there is no confusion whatsoever as to whose rally championship it is.


As to the football analogy - well - what can I say - The IFA Australian Football League - yep - that one even sounds like AFL so there must be a case there. Except for one very small item missing - the AFL use a completely different name in ALL of their advertising - AFL not Australian Football League (even though that is what it stands for. Their whole branding is done around three letters - which, if I'm not mistaken, have been trademarked - therefore they HAVE some protection against anyone else using AFL.

Unfortunately CAMS do NOT have this protection because, as pointed out before, the term Australian Rally Championship is not and cannot be trademarked as it is a generic term (incidentally, it was Ron Walker who attempted to sue A1 GP for the use of the term Grand Prix claiming that the Australian Grand Prix Corporation owned the term - he very very quickly stopped the whole line of this course of action because he could not even take it to court without it being ruled a frovolous action - MotoGP, Superbikes, athletic, power boats etc etc ALL use the term Grand Prix for their events).

The ONLY course of action CAMS can try to take action is IF AASA present their championshiup as the CAMS Australian Rally Championship - which they are not doing.

My point was, the choice of name was deliberately provocative.

[NewsStalker]

Whats provocative about using a name that actually describes the series?

I haven't seen you or anyone else cpomplain about them saying they are running motor sport events (let's face it - its the same term CAMS use (very loosely though).

If anything they have gone overboard to ensure that they do NOT try to pass it off as a CAMS championship.

But I guess to some, nothing anyone else does is going to be 'ethical' is it?

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

Whats provocative about using a name that actually describes the series?

I haven't seen you or anyone else cpomplain about them saying they are running motor sport events (let's face it - its the same term CAMS use (very loosely though).

If anything they have gone overboard to ensure that they do NOT try to pass it off as a CAMS championship.

But I guess to some, nothing anyone else does is going to be 'ethical' is it?

What can I say to such a response? Go, cling to as many semantics as you need to.

[MPA]

Originally Posted by EDA82

Well, the article in AA has comments from both Graham Fountain from CAMS and Mick Ronke from the AASA so what's the issue with truth? Or are you suggesting that AA just attributed quotes to people without their knowledge?

No EDA I'm not saying that AA attributes quotes to people without their knowledge.

What I will say is..... There's more beat ups in that rag than in the Melbourne CBD on a Saturday night. CAMS might be taking AASA to court, AA may be 1st with the news. But before anyone relies on it, check your sources. Something AA should do occasionally.

[NewsStalker]

Falcadore - you may not like it, can call it semantics or whatever else you want. The fact is that it is NOT encroaching on anything CAMS are doing or have done. These issues have already been before Australian Courts and decided on - CAMS won't have a leg to stand on.

All they are doing is wasting money. They tried to do the same with the Australian TGoruing Car Championship and got nowhere.

The term Australian <insert name here> Championship has been already deemed to be too generic a term to copyright or trademark.

They would be better off - both financially and morally - by siomply getting on with the job they are supposed to do instead of causing even further trouble.

[DAVID PATERSON]

So, Newstalker according to you i can start something up called the (insert corporate sponsor's name) Australian Rally Championship and you reckon by your argument CAMS and AASA would have no reason to sue?

[inpitlane]

Let's repeat this slowly and loudly for some of the slower boys and girls at the back of the class.
CAMS' action is not, repeat not, about any trademark or copyright infringement. This is a case where CAMS and their no doubt over paid lawyers believe that they have evidence, yet to be tested in court, that will show that the AASA have willingly or otherwise passed off their Australian Rally Championship as the CAMS Australian Rally Championship. Without seeing that evidence none of us are in a position to comment on how successful or otherwise it might be.
Having said that I'll be most surprised if it ever gets to court.

[alfacors]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

If anything they have gone overboard to ensure that they do NOT try to pass it off as a CAMS championship.

If they had truly wanted to do that, they would have called it something else rather than relying on simply sticking "AASA" in front of an already established and recognised title........ maybe they have tried to differentiate, but to term their actions as "overboard" is laughable.

[Uncle Cranker]

Originally Posted by mmciau

Very 'insightful' there UC

In this case I'd suggest the 'sibling' has different DNA !!

Mike

Mike, I'd say that the siblings do actually have the same DNA, they started off in the same place, all part of the same family.....

But in the finest traditions of a decent serious family blue, they don't talk, or have much nice to say to or about each other....

Except at Christmas (or in this case a V8 round) when they agree to not inflame the situation, so as not to get Nana (substitute Race Director at your will) all worked up.


And if she does get upset, it's nothing a couple of Pink Gin's won't soothe....

[NewsStalker]

So, Newstalker according to you i can start something up called the (insert corporate sponsor's name) Australian Rally Championship and you reckon by your argument CAMS and AASA would have no reason to sue?

Yes you can. Examples of this exist many times over in this country - companies registered with ASIC - and even trading names within states via the various Dept's of Fair Trading - are good examples. If you have a GENERIC name that can't be trademarked, you can, and do, have companies and businesses that are formed with nothing more than a state, town or other single word attached to distinguish between themselves and someone else using the same name, basic, generic name.

And to repeat - a GENERIC name, such as the Australian Rally Championship, cannot be trademarked and therefore cannot 'belong' to anyone (again - go back to when Ron Walker attempted to sue - or so he claimed they were going to - the organisers of the A1 GP for using the words 'Grand Prix').

Incidentally - if you want a GOOD example of this - go and search asic.gov.au fopr the term 'Australian Touring Car Championship' and see what you come back with (hint - the NSW registered name is 'owned' by a former partner in the Touring Car Challenge and NOT CAMS....). IN fact CAMS haven't even bothered to try and register the name anywhere....

[Trevor]

ho-hum, more boring CAMS vs AASA rhetoric.