Group A or V8 Supercars? (Merged)

[KA]

Originally Posted by peckstar

see i think you raise there the argument for it being overrated. Australains generally have no desire to see little 4 cyclinders put putts run around. especially when we went from a time of big v8's (and then back to v8's). from that basis the series was overrated

As Woolley said, we could do Group A V8s in Europe as well....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJFaO2YYUXc

Though if we really want to get into a bragging match on numbers of cylinders...- I'll see your 8, and raise you a 12....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhXLysNl-wE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oab6wwybto

[db120176]

I would have loved for Ford to have marketed the Sierra in Australia. Surely it would have sold better than the re-badged Mazdas that were the Telstar and TX5

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Those particular "put-putts" were actually faster than the Commodore V8s of the time down the straight at Bathurst

You're preaching to the converted here, give me a Sierra anyday.

[mountainstar]

I think when you put it into the context of the time, it was good and there were a lot of interesting cars that raced.

However I think since, a select few have tried to make it out as bigger and better than it really was.

In regards to Australia, a lot of Group A wasn't relevant, such as the Ford Sierras, so the appeal was always going to be limited. I think once they let the Skylines in as they were, that just wasn't going to work, a pukka sportscar up against 4 door sedans. And so it was Group A died. So it might have been cool for a while around 1987, but it was never gonna last.

[Goat Boy]

If they'd kept turbos out of it then things might have been different, but lots of cars had turbos then (these days most turbos would be diesel!) - TBH I think I got easily as much enjoyment out of the Bathurst 12 hour this year as I did out of the old Bathurst 1000 in the Group A days. But we don't seem to have the big personalities of the past (apart from Murph) - Tricky Dicky, Larrikin Larry, Peter Perfect, the list goes on...

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

If they'd kept turbos out of it then things might have been different, but lots of cars had turbos then (these days most turbos would be diesel!) - TBH I think I got easily as much enjoyment out of the Bathurst 12 hour this year as I did out of the old Bathurst 1000 in the Group A days. But we don't seem to have the big personalities of the past (apart from Murph) - Tricky Dicky, Larrikin Larry, Peter Perfect, the list goes on...

Arguably, the best engine in the Falcon range today is a four cylinder, two litre turbo petrol engine.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by bluesport

Arguably, the best engine in the Falcon range today is a four cylinder, two litre turbo petrol engine.

I'm surprised that nobody has put a decent Euro diesel in Falcodores to date.

[Stand21]

So from 1985 to 1991, Group A (in Aus) had the BMW 635 dominate, then the M3, then the Sierra RS500 & finally the R32 GTR.
A 7 year span that saw 4 completely different cars lead the pack, with at times stiff competition from Volvo 240s, VK & VL Commodores, Skylines & Jags.

Turn the clock forward to the V8SC era, where its supposed to be a level playing field with no dominant car, we've seen one team basically dominate the series for the last 5 years. And who will bet against 888/Whincup making it 5 titles from the last 6?

Now, which category is overated again??

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Stand21

So from 1985 to 1991, Group A (in Aus) had the BMW 635 dominate, then the M3, then the Sierra RS500 & finally the R32 GTR.
A 7 year span that saw 4 completely different cars lead the pack, with at times stiff competition from Volvo 240s, VK & VL Commodores, Skylines & Jags.

Turn the clock forward to the V8SC era, where its supposed to be a level playing field with no dominant car, we've seen one team basically dominate the series for the last 5 years. And who will bet against 888/Whincup making it 5 titles from the last 6?

Now, which category is overated again??

thats what they call a straw man, trying to take us off subject.

[Stand21]

Originally Posted by peckstar

thats what they call a straw man, trying to take us off subject.

Ain't no straw, just a simple comparison to the OP's obvious beef about anything that isn't V8SC.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by davyboy

It was an inline 4 but not any normal inline 4, it was a variant of of BMW's all conquering M12 Formula 2 engine. The first generation M3 was a truly awesome piece of kit.

Ah, that's right, my bad. Was the ST a 6 or has my memory completely gone?

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

I'm surprised that nobody has put a decent Euro diesel in Falcodores to date.

From all reports, the diesel engine in the Territory is a decent unit.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Stand21

So from 1985 to 1991, Group A (in Aus) had the BMW 635 dominate, then the M3, then the Sierra RS500 & finally the R32 GTR.
A 7 year span that saw 4 completely different cars lead the pack, with at times stiff competition from Volvo 240s, VK & VL Commodores, Skylines & Jags.

Turn the clock forward to the V8SC era, where its supposed to be a level playing field with no dominant car, we've seen one team basically dominate the series for the last 5 years. And who will bet against 888/Whincup making it 5 titles from the last 6?

Now, which category is overated again??

That's definately a legitimate comment.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Ah, that's right, my bad. Was the ST a 6 or has my memory completely gone?

Woolley, an email I received:

"Could be us someday" ..keep this one!

When asked by a young patrol officer, "Do you know you were speeding?"
This 83-year-old woman gave the young officer an ear to ear smile and stated:
"Yes, but .... I had to get there before I forgot where I was going."
The officer put his ticket book away and bid her good day.
Makes perfectly good sense to me.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Stand21

Ain't no straw, just a simple comparison to the OP's obvious beef about anything that isn't V8SC.

If you could show me, where the OP discussed V8Supercars, that woudl be handy.

what he did discuss was the age of the drivers though.

thus you made a straw man

[Swedish Brick]

Originally Posted by db120176

I would have loved for Ford to have marketed the Sierra in Australia. Surely it would have sold better than the re-badged Mazdas that were the Telstar and TX5

as opposed to a Cortina based thing? I'm not so sure about that! Base model Sierras were awful

[Stand21]

Originally Posted by peckstar

If you could show me, where the OP discussed V8Supercars, that woudl be handy.

what he did discuss was the age of the drivers though.

thus you made a straw man

Hehe, a thousand apologies......man

So mentioning Group C like others have done is ok?
Just want to make sure.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Stand21

Hehe, a thousand apologies......man

So mentioning Group C like others have done is ok?
Just want to make sure.

No one has tried to debate if Group C was overated.

No one said you cant compare or mention.

What you did was Try to shift the conversation to if V8S was overrated. that is a strawman.

[Stand21]

Originally Posted by peckstar

No one has tried to debate if Group C was overated.

No one said you cant compare or mention.

What you did was Try to shift the conversation to if V8S was overrated. that is a strawman.

My post was just a comparison.

The final question was clearly rhetorical, sarcastic maybe, but rhetorical all the same.
But you're free to call it whatever you like.

Back to the topic...

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Stand21

My post was just a comparison.

The final question was clearly rhetorical, sarcastic maybe, but rhetorical all the same.
But you're free to call it whatever you like.

Back to the topic...

I get the point you're making with your earlier post. I guess that the big difference between then and now is that back then, if you didn't have the dominant car, you could not overcome it over a season, no matter how hard or well you worked, how good your pilots / engineers were. Hence the "formula Sierra" approach where all jumped onto that unbeatable bandwagon - till a better mousetrap came along.

In today's era, any team has the POSSIBILITY to take on the dominant force and beat them but it ain't easy and nor should it be. 888 stepped up to the plate when they started winning, DJR when they beat 888, SBR when they started winning after HRT domination - it can be done.

In the original topic - Group A was most definitely not overrated but it had its problems - in particular the 500 vehicle homologation specials and the dominance that brought. In it's early days, it was good - once manufacturers and teams worked out how to really work the rules and system, it became less good as one make tended to dominate each season.

[Stand21]

Yeah the 500 hotrods rule sure did change the face of a very good formula.
I still enjoyed Group A a lot, although one thing it failed to deliver was a cheaper way to go racing compared to Group C.
I remember even in the first year drivers & teams were claiming 30k for the onboard jacking system & 25k for a Getrag 5 speed. Far beyond what they spent in Group C.

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by racer69

Dick Johnson twice investigated a 6 cylinder turbo version of the Falcon (for Group C and Group A), Ford were not interested though so it didn't get very far.

There were no V8 Falcon's by the time Group A started in Australia, so a car of that makeup would have been ineligible. The Anderson's got local homologation in NZ for a V8 XE Falcon that ran in Group A over there, but it was ineligible for FISA homologation.

Dick had to run a Ford, because he was definitely getting factory support? Because if he didn't, then he should've ran another make. It would been no big deal if Australia had run slightly different rules to European series, like NZ did. I suppose having international competitors at Bathurst would've made it difficult. I remember one time, as a kid, being annoyed that I hadn't seen any Sierras on the road. We all appreciate the car as motorsport fans. But deep down, I don't think it should've been here. Maybe in a Sports Sedan class, but not the ATCC. Do you/anyone have a pic of the GpA Falcon?

[racer69]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Ah, that's right, my bad. Was the ST a 6 or has my memory completely gone?

The Super2000 version was a 6 i think?

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

Dick had to run a Ford, because he was definitely getting factory support? Because if he didn't, then he should've ran another make. It would been no big deal if Australia had run slightly different rules to European series, like NZ did. I suppose having international competitors at Bathurst would've made it difficult. I remember one time, as a kid, being annoyed that I hadn't seen any Sierras on the road. We all appreciate the car as motorsport fans. But deep down, I don't think it should've been here. Maybe in a Sports Sedan class, but not the ATCC. Do you/anyone have a pic of the GpA Falcon? ?

Johnson had some limited Ford support through Motorcraft, but the Zakspeed Mustang's he bought required DJR to do all the work themselves to get them competitive.

Austalia did run their own version of Group A in 1985, that was how the VK Commodore could compete that season. Ford Australia were just not interested at all. In 1986 Australia fell into line with FISA rules (we kept our own different class structures though)

The Ford Sierra had as much right to be competing in the ATCC as the Moffat Coke Mustang did, or Bob Jane's Camaro, or the Geoghegan Mustang's.....

Google "Anderson Falcon XE" , it throws up a few pics of the car.

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by bluesport

Arguably, the best engine in the Falcon range today is a four cylinder, two litre turbo petrol engine.

I'd have to disagree, imo the 4L barra I6 is the best there is in the ford dept.

Originally Posted by racer69

The Super2000 version was a 6 i think?



Johnson had some limited Ford support through Motorcraft, but the Zakspeed Mustang's he bought required DJR to do all the work themselves to get them competitive.

Austalia did run their own version of Group A in 1985, that was how the VK Commodore could compete that season. Ford Australia were just not interested at all. In 1986 Australia fell into line with FISA rules (we kept our own different class structures though)

The Ford Sierra had as much right to be competing in the ATCC as the Moffat Coke Mustang did, or Bob Jane's Camaro, or the Geoghegan Mustang's.....

Google "Anderson Falcon XE" , it throws up a few pics of the car.

see thats what I dont get about it, they add all these random cars in the series, was suprisded I didnt see a Corolla running around. and against these other cars, which are proper racing cars, mustangs, camaro's, skylines, BMW's. to me seeing a Sierra's racing on this series doesnt do it for me, Those cars could be as fast as an F1 and still wouldnt interest me. were they hard to drive? it looked like it was a handful. were they interesting to see racing, let alone look at? not really.

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by racer69

Johnson had some limited Ford support through Motorcraft, but the Zakspeed Mustang's he bought required DJR to do all the work themselves to get them competitive.

Might've been a better option to use another make.

Originally Posted by racer69

Austalia did run their own version of Group A in 1985, that was how the VK Commodore could compete that season. Ford Australia were just not interested at all. In 1986 Australia fell into line with FISA rules (we kept our own different class structures though)

Oh ok.

Originally Posted by racer69

The Ford Sierra had as much right to be competing in the ATCC as the Moffat Coke Mustang did, or Bob Jane's Camaro, or the Geoghegan Mustang's.....

I don't know about the other cars. But, being honest with myself if I had had absolute power at the time, I would've tried to make th ATCC correlate with what was seen on the roads at the time. I like the Sierra as a racing car as well, but it just didn't look right, even though it was accepted. The other GpA cars looked familiar and you saw similar every now and then, if not often. The Sierra? You never saw it. I would've given Nissan an "Are you being serious?" face had they come to me proposing the GTR as well

Originally Posted by racer69

Google "Anderson Falcon XE" , it throws up a few pics of the car.

Well, not yet. I'll keep trying, though.