Group A Golfs & Audis

[chunterer]

Hi Jim, good to have you back with us

So if as you say Alan Minshaw took over Richard Lloyd's Mk1, was that during rather than prior to the '83 season do you think as other than Alan and John, Lloyd also scored points that season, in which Minshaw won the Class?

[KA]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Hi Jim, good to have you back with us

So if as you say Alan Minshaw took over Richard Lloyd's Mk1, was that during rather than prior to the '83 season do you think as other than Alan and John, Lloyd also scored points that season, in which Minshaw won the Class?

I think Minshaw took over the ex-Lloyd car at the beginning of the year. I don't have a complete set of results & championship table for '83, but where did Lloyd score points? I suspect it may have been the last round at Silverstone?

I've got several issues of Performance Car to hand here, and looking at the regular Art Markus-written 'Art on A' column from the Jan '84 issue, Lloyd made his debut for the season in the last round with what a photo caption describes as 'his GTI Engineering demo car'. This is a plain white Golf, carrying race no100, with GTI Engineering' signwriting, and a few decals for- Zender, Matter, Ronal, Bilstein, BP

From the article:

'Also appearing for the first time was 'Mr GTI Engineering' Richard Lloyd, driving a pristine white Golf GTI, which some readers may have seen on the Silverstone-based VW dealer's stand at the BRSCC's Racing Car Show in January. The car sat in the paddock at Silverstone on race day with a 'For Sale' sign on the windscreen, price 12K, so if you fancy your chances in next year's series, get your cheque book out'

The article also has a pic of Minshaw in his regular black car being overtaken by Longman's Escort.

Two questions come to mind- Firstly, where did Lloyd finish (the article concentrates on the championship battle which was resolved in Minshaw's favour by the point for fastest lap, after his race ended in the catchfencing at Club

(Final points- Minshaw 45, Hodgetts 43, Curnow 42- Curnow needed a win and fastest lap with Minshaw non-scoring to take the class, Minshaw just requiring a single point to deny him)

Second question, this white Lloyd Golf- What happened to it, did anyone 'get their cheque book out'?

[KA]

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

Good background info on the Manshaw Golf, KA, but what happened to this "useless" car?

The tone of the article is interesting on the performance of the car. Although it makes it very clear that the car was little faster than the Class C cars, the extra power of the 1.8 ejgine barely offsetting the 80kg extra weight the car carries, the article does speculate whether the Mk2 was a totally lost cause in Group A.

Markus compares the performance of the Minshaw car with that of the RAS Sport/Monroe example, which he says was around 3-4 secs a lap faster in qualifying (interestingly, he says the official qualifying time given for the Minshaw car was 'somewhat optimistic' and 'rather flattered our car') The main difference highlighted is the use of 13' wheels on the RAS car, rather than the 15s on the DT machine- According to Markus, these allowed RAS to run a lower ride height, possibly giving a handling advantage- he also suggests it was stronger in a straight line.

On the other hand, he suggests that even with the homologtion of the 16-valver, it was doubtful that the Golf would be able to compete with the Class B turbos- he quotes the over 6-second advantage that the Longman Escort turbo (which qualified in the top 10 outright with only 'big' class turbos and Rovers ahead of it!) had over the Golfs was a gap unlikely to be bridged by the 50-odd extra bhp the 16-valve engine was expected to give

[KA]

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

Good background info on the Manshaw Golf, KA, but what happened to this "useless" car? Sometime during 1987 Minshaw got himself a proper 16 valve Golf but was this new then or build over the original '84 8 valve?

I've read a discussion on a VW forum suggesting there were definitely 2 Minshaw Group A Mk2s- One of these at least still survives, having more recently competed in sprints & hillclimbs in the UK- I posted links to some pics a few posts back

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

Dane Henrik Pilgaard rallycrossed a Coupé during the mid-1980s making a one-off at Jyllands-Ringen for the opening round of the 1986 Danish group A series. I don't know the pre-history of this cars where abouts but will dig into that.

Jesper

Staying on a rallycross tangent, surprisingly a Group A Coupe turned up in Div 1 of the ERC as late as 1990/91 or thereabouts! I've got a pic somewhere of a yellow car at a Lydden ERC round taken about that time- I think it may have been a Czech entry. I'll dig out the pic and programme details

[Jesper OH]

One of the ETCC Golf teams that has grown on me is that of Hans-Jörn Ley and Friedrich-Wilhelm Stallmann usually entered under the AC Bad Honnef name – I guess this is the club they belonged to, the city situated in the industrial Rhein area:
http://www.mapquest.de/mq/maps/mapAd...y=bad%20honnef

Brno ’82: http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-06-13-053.jpg
Brno ’83: http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-06-12-063.jpg
Spa ’84: http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-29-066.jpg
TT ’84: http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-09-09-076.jpg
Spa ’85: http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-28-078.jpg

Not particularly well sponsored and never likely to win any awards for striking looks, they nevertheless entered most rounds of the ETCC 1983-1986 winning once and had about a handful of podium finishes to their name.

Jesper

[KA]

Yes, they seemed to be very much a regular part of the scene in the 1600 class, and obviously fairly widely-photographed for a relatively low-profile privateer team- From memory, there's a nice colour shot of their Golf in one of the Silverstone TT race programmes, either 1986 or 87

[KA]

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

I was thinking of the rear mounted oil cooler on the TWR Jaguars of late 1983 too, also non spoilers of course!

Jesper

Going back to the Greenhalgh/Ordibel Golf and that odd brake duct/spoiler/whatever thing- found a couple of pics of it in BTCC action at Brands in 84, with just a conventional Golf GTI spoiler

http://www.flickr.com/photos/3611177...7614837361312/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/3611177...7614837361312/ (incidentally, is that a Mk1 Astra behind it in the second pic?)

pics are copyright Peter Novani, who has recently posted a load of Group A pics on Flickr.

Is that the John Morris Scirocco in the background of this shot of the Sawyer-Hoare Rover?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/3611177...7614837361312/

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by KA

Going back to the Greenhalgh/Ordibel Golf and that odd brake duct/spoiler/whatever thing- found a couple of pics of it in BTCC action at Brands in 84, with just a conventional Golf GTI spoiler

http://www.flickr.com/photos/3611177...7614837361312/ (incidentally, is that a Mk1 Astra behind it in the second pic?)

Is that the John Morris Scirocco in the background of this shot of the Sawyer-Hoare Rover?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/3611177...7614837361312/

Yes that's Andrew Thorpe's Astra which was vastly underdeveloped all season and I reckon that's Morris's Scirocco too.

Good finds KA, had a brief look at the Novani images - some real gems!!

[chunterer]

Couple more images

Greenhalgh's Mk1 GTi in the Thruxton Paddock, 1984

A couple of ETC entrants at the rear of the Pit garages at the TT that year. The 78 car appears to be some cause for concern to the 2 guy's at the back!!

Both images courtesy of moi

[KA]

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

I don't think he managed a full season in 1988 either, as Andrew Jeffrey and James Shead eventually decided the class C battle among them in their former Rally Golfs. I believe that Minshaw sold his 16V to John Morris midway through the 1989 season when Morris about totalled his own 16V.

Jesper

From memory, Morris shunted the 'Listers' Golf towards the end of the season and took over the Minshaw car- which I think was sidelined with a blown engine?- for the last couple of rounds, running it I think with an engine from his original car. I don't recall without having the relevant race reports to hand whether it was bought or leased, and whether it ran in the original Demon Tweeks colours, or was resprayed by Morris' crew (his car was run by John Maguire I think?)

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by KA

From memory, Morris shunted the 'Listers' Golf towards the end of the season and took over the Minshaw car- which I think was sidelined with a blown engine?- for the last couple of rounds, running it I think with an engine from his original car. I don't recall without having the relevant race reports to hand whether it was bought or leased, and whether it ran in the original Demon Tweeks colours, or was resprayed by Morris' crew (his car was run by John Maguire I think?)

Was this when he somehow managed top barrel-roll the car down the Donington straight (alongside the Exhibition Centre?).

[KA]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Was this when he somehow managed top barrel-roll the car down the Donington straight (alongside the Exhibition Centre?).

Could well be- I think I've seen pics of it somewhere, but don't remember where

[andy97]

What about the French SuperTourisme Audi 80s, V8s & 200s? Weren't they Group A cars too? The V8s were used in DTM (when it was still Group A) & the 200s were built by ROC, I think. (The works even rallied a Group A 200!!!)

[andy97]

Arhhh, just noticed that the opening post refers to the FWD Audis. Sorry, the SuperTourisme 80s, the DTM V8s and the 200s were all 4WD I am sure! Is that another thread??

[KA]

There's another thread around on the rare Group A cars, and the 200 Quattro crops up in there somewhere (one ran briefly in DTM in the late 80's), but we've not looked at the V8s and the French cars yet

[andy97]

Originally Posted by KA

There's another thread around on the rare Group A cars, and the 200 Quattro crops up in there somewhere (one ran briefly in DTM in the late 80's), but we've not looked at the V8s and the French cars yet

The DTM Audi in the late 80s was an Audi V8, a different designation to the 200, I think. There were some very slight bodywork (grill) differences between the 2 & the 200 had the 5 pot turbo motor. DTM at the time was a Group A series. The 200's were rallied as works cars in Group A in the 90s & later a very highly modified (spaceframe version) raced in US Trans-Am.

[banger_racer]

Heres a link that shows pictures of the cars mentioned above DTM, Rally etc.

http://www.audi.com/com/brand/en/exp...race_cars.html

[andy97]

Thanks. After a bit more googling I have discovered that an Audi 200 was the champion car in the French Supertourisme Championship in 1986, whilst 80 quattros were the champions 1991-93. All were prepared by ROC Competition.

Strangely, an Audi 200 appeared on the RAC Rally as recently as 1995. From the entry list:

Number : 118
Entrant : PAUL COOPER (GB)
Crew : Paul Cooper/Roger Mallalieu GB/GB
Car : Audi 200 Quattro 2144t
Class : A/8 a

Not sure wherethey finished. I wonder who built that car & what happened to it?

Why do I find this strange, well it wasn't well known as a clubman car and the works only used the car on the 1988 RAC, I think, & stopped using it altogether in 1989.

[KA]

Originally Posted by andy97

The DTM Audi in the late 80s was an Audi V8, a different designation to the 200, I think. There were some very slight bodywork (grill) differences between the 2 & the 200 had the 5 pot turbo motor. DTM at the time was a Group A series. The 200's were rallied as works cars in Group A in the 90s & later a very highly modified (spaceframe version) raced in US Trans-Am.

As well as the factory V8s, a privately-entered(?) 5-cyl turbo 200 Quattro appeared in a couple of DTM rounds as early as 1986 for Freddy Kottulinsky, without success- best placing was bottom end end of the top 20. There doesn't seem to be much known about this one on here though- it cropped up in the 'unusual Group A cars' thread, but I don't think anyone was able to turn up a pic:

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

The Audi 200 quattro was mentioned earlier and it did a few 1986 DTM races with Freddy Kotulinsky driving. Any factory connections were denied by Audi at the time, but I believe Kotulinsky was heavily involved with Audi. The later V8 was in fact based on the 200 (and 100) chassis, so if success was limited a few valuable lessons were obviously learned.

Jesper

Incidentally, Kottulinsky's daughter Susanne also rallied a 200 Quattro internationally http://www.rallybase.nl/index.php?ty...&driverid=3470
She obviously enjoyed big ungainly rally cars, as her previous drive was a Volvo 240 Turbo...

[KA]

Originally Posted by andy97

Thanks. After a bit more googling I have discovered that an Audi 200 was the champion car in the French Supertourisme Championship in 1986, whilst 80 quattros were the champions 1991-93. All were prepared by ROC Competition.

The French cars were real beasts- the Supertourisme regs were unique to France and allowed modifications beyond a regular Group A car. Can't find a 200, but this is the 80 in 1991/2-spec
http://images.forum-auto.com/mesimag...i80-%20112.jpg
http://images.forum-auto.com/mesimag...ijon920002.jpg
They later ran BTCC-style 2-litre versions
http://images.forum-auto.com/mesimag...%201991007.jpg

Originally Posted by andy97

Strangely, an Audi 200 appeared on the RAC Rally as recently as 1995. From the entry list:

Number : 118
Entrant : PAUL COOPER (GB)
Crew : Paul Cooper/Roger Mallalieu GB/GB
Car : Audi 200 Quattro 2144t
Class : A/8 a

Not sure wherethey finished. I wonder who built that car & what happened to it?

Why do I find this strange, well it wasn't well known as a clubman car and the works only used the car on the 1988 RAC, I think, & stopped using it altogether in 1989.

As you said, it wasn't a common privateer car, but there were a few around. The factory only used it briefly in '87 (Monte, Safari and Acropolisplus a couple more I think), but the cars carried on with Konrad Schmidt Motorsport and Audi Sport UK- drivers included Armin Schwartz, Susanne Kottulinsky and David Llewellin
http://www.rallye-wahn.de/Bilder/198...e88/Bild24.jpg

A few examples (in 1/43 form at least!) here,
http://www.scala43.com/scala43/audi.htm

including what looks as if it might be the Kottulinsky DTM car from 1986
http://www.scala43.com/scala43/audi/...uattro-k55.jpg

[andy97]

Originally Posted by KA

Incidentally, Kottulinsky's daughter Susanne also rallied a 200 Quattro internationally http://www.rallybase.nl/index.php?ty...&driverid=3470
She obviously enjoyed big ungainly rally cars, as her previous drive was a Volvo 240 Turbo...

I don't think the 200 quattro was ungainly. Big, certainly, but not ungainly. An attractive and aerodynamically efficient body shell in its day.

The link to the model pictures is interesting as it does show where the cars were used competitively. It took me a while to realise that if you clicked on the picture of the model you get a picture of the actual car racing or rallying up.

[KA]

Originally Posted by andy97

I don't think the 200 quattro was ungainly. Big, certainly, but not ungainly. An attractive and aerodynamically efficient body shell in its day.

The link to the model pictures is interesting as it does show where the cars were used competitively. It took me a while to realise that if you clicked on the picture of the model you get a picture of the actual car racing or rallying up.

Oh definitely- I always liked that style of Audi 100/200- Like a lot of big rallycars though, it always looked a little out of place being thrown through a forest stage- remarkable effective for it's size though...

We mentioned the French Supertourisme 200s though- More info here. They were real beasts, with 500+ bhp....
http://www.audistory.24max.de/old1/efpc.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xspua...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiQCa...eature=related

Going back to the 1986 DTM Audi 200 for Kottulinsky- was this a privateer effort, or a low-key factory entry. It only did a few races, with little in the way of results, but I think there were rumours of plans for something more serious in the press around that time?

[KA]

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

One of the ETCC Golf teams that has grown on me is that of Hans-Jörn Ley and Friedrich-Wilhelm Stallmann usually entered under the AC Bad Honnef name – I guess this is the club they belonged to, the city situated in the industrial Rhein area:

Spa ’85: http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-28-078.jpg

Not particularly well sponsored and never likely to win any awards for striking looks, they nevertheless entered most rounds of the ETCC 1983-1986 winning once and had about a handful of podium finishes to their name.

Jesper

Now here's something I'd only recently noticed- as you say, Ley & Stallmann's Golf was pretty much an ETC regular from 1983-86, but they did reappear briefly in '87- turning up at Brno where they posted a DNQ- but not with the Golf- their Brno car was a Mk2 Scirocco.
If it was a Class 2 entry, as RSC suggests, hardly surprising they didn't make it into the race with a pack of M3s and 75 Turbos to contend with in the class...

http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-08-16-071.jpg

[Avgas]

Originally Posted by KA

I think Minshaw took over the ex-Lloyd car at the beginning of the year. I don't have a complete set of results & championship table for '83, but where did Lloyd score points? I suspect it may have been the last round at Silverstone?

I've got several issues of Performance Car to hand here, and looking at the regular Art Markus-written 'Art on A' column from the Jan '84 issue, Lloyd made his debut for the season in the last round with what a photo caption describes as 'his GTI Engineering demo car'. This is a plain white Golf, carrying race no100, with GTI Engineering' signwriting, and a few decals for- Zender, Matter, Ronal, Bilstein, BP

From the article:

'Also appearing for the first time was 'Mr GTI Engineering' Richard Lloyd, driving a pristine white Golf GTI, which some readers may have seen on the Silverstone-based VW dealer's stand at the BRSCC's Racing Car Show in January. The car sat in the paddock at Silverstone on race day with a 'For Sale' sign on the windscreen, price 12K, so if you fancy your chances in next year's series, get your cheque book out'

The article also has a pic of Minshaw in his regular black car being overtaken by Longman's Escort.

Two questions come to mind- Firstly, where did Lloyd finish (the article concentrates on the championship battle which was resolved in Minshaw's favour by the point for fastest lap, after his race ended in the catchfencing at Club

(Final points- Minshaw 45, Hodgetts 43, Curnow 42- Curnow needed a win and fastest lap with Minshaw non-scoring to take the class, Minshaw just requiring a single point to deny him)

Second question, this white Lloyd Golf- What happened to it, did anyone 'get their cheque book out'?

The 1983 Minshaw Gr. A Golf was sold to Spain and was raced by CAMAC Racing together with a 1984 RAS Sport Golf till 1990. Both cars still exist today.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Avgas

The 1983 Minshaw Gr. A Golf was sold to Spain and was raced by CAMAC Racing together with a 1984 RAS Sport Golf till 1990. Both cars still exist today.

Excellent news, what sort of condition are the two cars in?

Would the 1984 RAS car be the Mk2 Bosch liveried ETC one or is also a Mk1?