Possible Force India-Honda in '09?

[TilkeWannabe]

If anyone has read http://www.f1complete.com recently, they would've seen a story about a possible engine supplier change for 2009. Force India and Honda officials were seen talking to each other during I think it was the Canadian GP? Sounds interesting, what does anyone else think? Rumours, or the Real McCoy?

[Pro Racer]

well what next RBR talking to Merc, probably just rumours but F1 is strange.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Does it really matter what engine you run these days? They're pretty much the same anyway, and there's no development work going on. Maybe they want to become the new Super Aguri, but with more money and being a constructor. Would be excellent for Honda as they would then occupy grid spaces 17-20...

[FPV GTHO]

Honda are probably looking to fill the production void left by Super Aguri.

Ferrari are notorious for their engine supplies. Theres always claims of receiving inferior equipment, or a high price tag achieved. I wonder though if a significantly cheaper Honda engine would offset losing possibly the most powerful engine on the grid, and maybe by a margin. And of course theres the disclaimer of giving Sato a seat. But if Honda are paying his wages...

If it did happen you also have to wonder if someone else would jump on the 3rd Ferrari supply. The FIA might retract Ferrari's right to supply a 3rd team, as everyone else is restricted to 2 teams. If the customer car loopholes werent getting closed up you'd think maybe Red Bull would try and get both their teams using Ferrari engines.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

I wonder though if a significantly cheaper Honda engine would offset losing possibly the most powerful engine on the grid, and maybe by a margin.

I would agree that it's a more powerful engine than the Honda,but probably not the most powerful on the grid.

[Gt_R]

An inferior Ferrari engine, if true, would still be better than a Honda engine ain't it?

Force India would need to evaluate what is their primary need.

If it is cost-savings, yes, Honda will probably give a similar package with a low price. They would also get a driver "free". This may free up some added millions to pump into their development.

However, is it sound? Force India has worked hard to show that they are serious. Signing Ferrari adds a "touch" of marketability/glamour for the team, and having Fisichella/Sutil/Mike on board helped to show they are serious. Reverting to taking on a paid-driver (however good) may affect the way the team is seen.

Ferrari engines have always been priced on a slightly high side. Yet, they have consistently provided customer engines. Other engine manufacturers chose to offer their engines at a lower rate because they need to attract customers. Ron/Mercedes had once proposed $10mil engines but they didn't materialize. Others do not have the sufficient facilities/support team to give continual and consistent service

The rumoured "iinferior" einges supplied by Ferrari are not justified criticisms. Ferrari engines have consistenly been the best, or among the best. Ferrari often provide customers the same engine as the Works team at the start of the season, but as Ferrari had a quick pace of development, naturally, Ferrari Works team get the upgrades first. Still, the customer teams are given their contracted upgrades and support by the special department created to service customer teams.

However, Ferrari engines are known to be "difficult" to work with because the Ferrari engines are designed to be fully integrated with the chassis/car packageof the Work car down to the details. This meant that there is a very small margin for compromise, and teams like Torro Rosso and Spkyers had issues initially to overcome the problem, leading to some engine failures.

The unique packaging is also the reason why Newey opted to go for Renault engines for RBR, (which he states are easier to work with), and why Ferrari provided Sauber the complete rear end of the car for one of the customer years.

Force India may do well to economize, and perhaps going to Honda is beneficial simply because it may be a easier option to work with and due to commercial considerations.

What i may be concerned with however is that any deals made for 2009 will be seen as a bit too late. Even if the deal is concluded by end of July, Force India will be left with just 6months to adapt their 2009 designs to a new engine parameter. It may be a risk.

[Marbot]

Another reason for changing is that Ferrari's KERS is reportedly integrated into the entire engine/gearbox structure.This may prove to be too costly for FI to purchase and maybe keeping a seperate line of production open just for the engine would not be cost effective for Ferrari?

[Icebaby]

Ferrari paying the ultimate price for one of their drivers stupidity at Monoco by hitting a customers car, if the story is true maybe VJ was more upset than first thought....

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Icebaby

Ferrari paying the ultimate price for one of their drivers stupidity at Monoco by hitting a customers car, if the story is true maybe VJ was more upset than first thought....

Really ?

[Peter Ford]

i think sato ahve to be the luckiest driver in f1,just being japanese help him,he not a world champion or even a race winner but it seems that everytime a team gets honda engines he get to drive with that team,first honda then super aguri now maybe force inda.

[TilkeWannabe]

If Sato were to go the Force India path for as long as they're powered by Honda, that wouldn't help Vijay Mallya's conquest to have an all-Indian driver line-up. That is just what it keeps coming back to for me, all-Indian drivers driving for his team. But if Mallya were to go for slightly cheaper engines, such as Hondas, he might have to call off his plans for some time. Mike Gascoyne has worked on Honda engines before (they were Mugen-Hondas though), so he's had some experience with them, although I don't know how long he was at Jordan for.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Gt_R

An inferior Ferrari engine, if true, would still be better than a Honda engine ain't it?

Maybe, but would F1F1 get more benefit working with an engine "partner" who is only supplying one team as opposed to Ferrari who supply two?

Obviously, from Honda's point of view, $25 million or whatever the cost is would benefit Honda greatly as opposed to having to foot the bill for SA.

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by TilkeWannabe

Mike Gascoyne has worked on Honda engines before (they were Mugen-Hondas though), so he's had some experience with them, although I don't know how long he was at Jordan for.

They wouldve also been V10's. That alone probably erases any advantage from previous knowledge. Theres no cooling data to be gained as it stands to reason an engine 20% smaller and producing a similar number less HP, it probably can get away with around 20% less cooling as well. The harmonics of the V8 and V10 are different as well so theres nothing to be gained with the physical aspect of the installation.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by TilkeWannabe

Mike Gascoyne has worked on Honda engines before (they were Mugen-Hondas though), so he's had some experience with them, although I don't know how long he was at Jordan for.

He joined Jordan in June 1998 and stayed with them until the beginning of 2001, before he went to Benetton, so, to answer your question, he was there 2 1/2 years

[TilkeWannabe]

Good point, should've known they were V10s before I posted it. I did but I didn't, if you know what I mean.

[Notso Swift]

I think I would actually see this as viable
Losing a few hosre power is not going to effect FI as much as the benefit in an extra $10 million (or whatever) in areo development. Net gain.

[Pete_58]

If Force India are trying to cut costs for next season, looking to Honda as engine supplier would be a good start.

Ferrari are current engine suppliers, yes, but they are last seasons engines or 2008 spec?

Also as someone said if Vijay Mallya wants an all indian driver line up, he will be hard pressed, wont he? Only one indian driver springs to mind, Karthykayen (sp).... what his name!!!

[TilkeWannabe]

Karun Chandhok (of GP2 Asia Series fame) too. He's on the Red Bull Young Driver list for 2008.