Zytek 2009

[Justin82]

First post so I don't know if this fits anywhere but....

I was wondering what the latest is with Zytek? I have heard lots of speculation and rumours but little hard evidence. The reason I ask is the reason I am posting here.

It was the 2004 (?) LMES and 24hr race prominently featuring Zytek that first drew me to sportscar racing, before that I had only been interested in F1 (sorry!). The performance of Zytek showed that sportscar racing was unpredictable, the plucky outside could prevail and the cars (even those in the same class) were DIFFERENT - compare and contrast the 2004 Audi and the 2004 Zytek. These different designs were startling for an F1 fan who was use to seeing (almost identical) machines. Zytek (a specialist engineering firm) seemed to capture what motorsport should be about. One set of engineers against another, racing to race not racing to sell soft drinks and racing at proper circuits (Spa, Monza) not in the middle of a desert somewhere.

Anyway since 2004 I have been hooked on the sport and followed Zytek. Hence my question.

Thanks

[ss_collins]

There will be a hybrid Zytek racing next year

[HORNDAWG]

Here is some stuff on Zytek for later this year and next. link


L.P.

[JAG]

I can't help thinking Creation would have been better sticking with Zytek chassis, letting the factory design and develop the car, they could have even run the AIM engine.

Zytek need P1 customers, while Creation, IMO, appear to have bitten off more than they can chew at this time.

[The Real DMN]

I hate to say it, but I think your right. I get the feeling (and this is based on only that - my own feeling) that they have been treading water for a least a year now. In other words, going nowhere. They are my favorite P1 team, but I think they seem to have dropped the ball somewhere along the way.

Going to front row in the ALMS to also runs (the strength of Audi and Penske aside) does not happen by fluke.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JAG

I can't help thinking Creation would have been better sticking with Zytek chassis, letting the factory design and develop the car, they could have even run the AIM engine.

Zytek need P1 customers, while Creation, IMO, appear to have bitten off more than they can chew at this time.

Keeping in mind there are really two entities involved with Creation.

1. A race team.
2. The KWM group who own the rights to the design, and were involved in the first design of the Reynard.... Zytek.

I certainly wouldn't think KWM have bitten off more than they can chew, yet Creation the team doesn't seem to be up to the task to maximize the design through testing.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by The Real DMN

Going to front row in the ALMS to also runs (the strength of Audi and Penske aside) does not happen by fluke.

You hit the nail there with the comment about Audi and Penske - unfortunately you cant put them aside as they are the cause. What it took to be competitive 2 years ago is a different ball game. I suspect if you look at Creations lap times, they have not gone backwards, but Porsche and Audi (with a nudge from Peugeot)have moved the goal posts massively since then).

It is very difficult for teams with Creations resources to be competitive with that.

I guess it needs a collaboration between a group of teams such as Embassy, Creation and Rollcentre, all who are putting money into separate projects, to properly fund the development of a single works standard package.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Mal

It is very difficult for teams with Creations resources to be competitive with that.

24th place finish was a bad result for them . New car , new engine & 3 quick drivers .

They should have been at least one of the fastest "petrol" machines out there .

Their old car was fairly quick ..... im not sure about that AIM engine . I read someplace that Pescarolo was quite happy to stick with the Judd GV5.5S2 , saying that the V angle in the AIM was not suitable ?

They seem to have lost the plot altogether . Maybe they might be better off trying to tackle LMP2 first ?

[isynge]

At risk of skating off topic, although I suppose Creation are still loosely related to Zytek in the manner of a Habsburg like family tree, I can see a number of factors behind Creation's "stumble".

First off I really don't think we should underestimate the impact of Minassian's departure. It can probably be said with some safety that he's one of the most accomplished sportscar drivers out there at the moment, and his personal role in wringing the best out of the Creation - both behind the wheel and in terms of development, was probably a driving factor in Creation's competitiveness in '05 and '06.

I suspect they're also suffering from the pains of expanding rapidly. Launching a US customer operation would have stretched their resources, especially given the efforts they seem to have made to support Intersport and Autocon, and when this singularly didn't deliver results (saying a lot about the complexity of setting up and running a Creation - which reinforces the point about the role of Minassian) it could probably be seen as an unproductive diversion. Combine this with the new chassis, the new engine, and as I'll come onto, trying to run two cars, and it all becomes difficult for a small organisation.

They also show the manifest difficulties in becoming a two car operation. If I remember rightly it was only at Donington 2006 that they managed to get two cars onto the grid - and granted they ran very well there. Since then though a combination of factors have really conspired against them, and critically the failure to sign Pagenaud followed by Campbell-Walter's accident must have really stripped momentum away, especially when it ends up being followed by Hall's accident at Le Mans.

While I'm not as full of doom and gloom as some, 24th at Le Mans is moderately explicable given their qualifying experience, and the performance at Monza was highly creditable, I do seem to agree that something is awry with the squad, and while I still think they can cut it in LMP1 perhaps formally stepping down to a one car operation for '08 and '09 and focusing on getting it right would be of benefit.

[Kai]

Anywho, back to Zytek, I think that with some of their other pojects coming to a close (A1GP) they should start to build more on their pontential that is undeniably present. They are definately one one of the fastest P2 cars behind the Spyders/Acuras (especially in the hands of Vergers). In 2007 the Arena 07S was the fastest P1 behind the Pugs, it's reliability however was a joke, something which could be solved with more focus imo. That being said with a hybrid program for next year, something that let's face it has the potential to be very problematic, could they end up being uncompetitive because they chose to stop developing a quick chassis?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Kai

Anywho, back to Zytek, I think that with some of their other pojects coming to a close (A1GP) they should start to build more on their pontential that is undeniably present. They are definately one one of the fastest P2 cars behind the Spyders/Acuras (especially in the hands of Vergers). In 2007 the Arena 07S was the fastest P1 behind the Pugs, it's reliability however was a joke, something which could be solved with more focus imo. That being said with a hybrid program for next year, something that let's face it has the potential to be very problematic, could they end up being uncompetitive because they chose to stop developing a quick chassis?

Well I do not think that the hybrid project will stop development on the chassis as a petrol unit. Lawrence Tomlinson (LNT) has bought half of Zytek which will facilitate the Zytek 4.0 V8 engine to become the OEM unit for the Ginetta G50. Also making LNT the defacto works team I believe (Tomlinson saying he hopes to have 2 LNT Zyteks running by PLM), and continued petrol development in the LMP to run concurrent to the G50 development.(?) Also it is still a ? on what hybrid systems will be allowed, so?? When we will see the Zytek hybrid is still a question.


L.P.

[Hammerdown]

Two LNT Zyteks at PLM would be blast. Having seen their speed at Silverstone last year. Hopefully see Danny Watts and TKS showcasing their talent again!

[Justin82]

The combination of LNT and Zytek seems to bode well for the future.

Depending on which direction they go - Do people think that they could match Porsche in LMP2 or be leading the Pescarolo/ORECA group in P1?

It would also be great to see a Zytek powered Ginetta in GT1/GT2 in the future!

[The Badger]

But rumour has it that LNT will be going LMP1 with Zytek ?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by The Badger

But rumour has it that LNT will be going LMP1 with Zytek ?

That is what it sounds like to me. With the future entry of a Ginetta G50 in the GT ranks probable also.

L.P.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Keeping in mind there are really two entities involved with Creation.

1. A race team.
2. The KWM group who own the rights to the design, and were involved in the first design of the Reynard.... Zytek.

I certainly wouldn't think KWM have bitten off more than they can chew, yet Creation the team doesn't seem to be up to the task to maximize the design through testing.

I've no doubt KWM are upto the task, likewise I've little doubt Creation are a first class race team.

But it appears a big ask for such a small race team to single handedly develop their own chassis, and now they have a unique engine into the bargain.

Zytek have multiple customers to help spread the development load, and are happy for customers to run different engines, it seems to be the route Creation should have taken, and who knows, maybe the route for their next car.

Just look at the results Rollcentre have had with a solid, customer friendly chassis.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by JAG

Just look at the results Rollcentre have had with a solid, customer friendly chassis.

Yes ..... but the Pescarolo wasnt always a customer chassis . If Henri hadnt persevered with his project , there wouldnt be a Pescarolo now . But maybe the engine (AIM) is a bit adventureus ..... but to stay ahead is a bit of a catch 22 situation .....

[alwayswatching]

Originally Posted by JAG

I've no doubt KWM are upto the task, likewise I've little doubt Creation are a first class race team.

But it appears a big ask for such a small race team to single handedly develop their own chassis, and now they have a unique engine into the bargain.

Zytek have multiple customers to help spread the development load, and are happy for customers to run different engines, it seems to be the route Creation should have taken, and who knows, maybe the route for their next car.

Just look at the results Rollcentre have had with a solid, customer friendly chassis.

What Creation need is for another customer or customers to run the chassis with any other engine out there, to help with the developement and show that the CA07 is a good chassis.

[marcush.]

on paper the creation plan looked very intriguing,KWM,a real competent team of warriors,Bicks,Smythy ,Nic ,JCW ,in the second season the Michelin tyre deal.
But ,lets face it ,Nic left at the right moment and luckily jumpstarted his career with alot of help from Creations.
I guess KWM/Creation made some ,well ,less than perfect choices in developing the DBA in LMP 675(for a single year),the engine change first to 8cyl Judd instead of 10cyl,then the hybrid conversion for only a further year,then the Small front wheel compromise for the LMP1 car .
With hindsight ,this was more helping KWM to build up experience and knowledge instead of just building a competitive car for LMP1 racing.
I understand some reasons behind those decisions and they seemed valid to a degree when they were taken.But really I feel Creation was certainly on the verge of going places ,especially when the AIM deal came up .Now sadly time seems to run out before they can fullfill their promise.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by alwayswatching

What Creation need is for another customer or customers to run the chassis with any other engine out there, to help with the developement and show that the CA07 is a good chassis.

Autocon entered one at Le Mans with a Judd GV5.5 in it , didnt do very well !!! I think they want to race one in the ALMS ?

[cmk]

I think another customer implicitly implied one with some hope of getting on the pace. We (and Creation) already knew that was not the case with Autocon.

Creation was an example of potential not quite executed upon. Some of that was bad decision-making, some of that was probably a result of hands forced by pressures outside our knowledge (for those of us not integrated into the operation). The crying shame of it was the near-win in the epic LMS Silverstone race into darkness against McNish's Oreca R8. Oreca was a deserving winner, don't get me wrong, but surely Creation defeating Audi would have lead to a more positive sponsorship/investment situation.

[HORNDAWG]

You want to talk about Creation? Do it in the Creation thread! This thread is supposed to be About Zytek.



L.P.

[The Badger]

Exactly what is the link between Barazi Epsilon and Epsilon Euskadi , if there is one ?

[JAG]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

You want to talk about Creation? Do it in the Creation thread! This thread is supposed to be About Zytek.

L.P.

Zytek/Creation, Creation/Zytek, it seems to be one and the same thing, yet they are two seperate cars, with differing development paths, but they both, IMO, need each other to take the next step forward.

Originally Posted by The Badger

Yes ..... but the Pescarolo wasnt always a customer chassis . If Henri hadnt persevered with his project , there wouldnt be a Pescarolo now . But maybe the engine (AIM) is a bit adventureus ..... but to stay ahead is a bit of a catch 22 situation .....

IMO, we will see a consolidation of chassis manufactuers, Lola, Oreca-Courage, Zytek and Pescarolo, plus whatever cars the manufactuers sell.

I don't see teams taking risks elsewere, not when the level of competition is so high. You may find the odd big player such as Dome or Dallara coming in, but would you buy from outside the big chassis manufactuers if it was your cash?

[The Badger]

No , I wouldnt buy a Creation , sadly !!!

Why should a team buy a Creation , when there are several excellant chassis available , Lola , new chassis coming from Oreca/Courage , new Zytek on the way and I presume a new Pescarolo too . It would lead to better quality of racing too .

It would be a better deal for Creation to buy a "new" Zytek and put the AIM Engine in that .

Maybe Creation are trying to acomplish too much too soon , same like Lavaggi . Take a look at Oreca , and how its taken them to get to where they are now .

The RS Spyder is sold as a complete package , the Zytek is too . Pescarolo is designed with a Judd in mind and works very well indeed .

A lot of smaller teams have trouble with the combi route , meaning buying a chassis and an engine seperatly , and then trying to marry engines , wire looms and gearboxs together while trying to workout just what in hell the tyres and suspension are doing , not even mentioning aero .

Yeah ..... I agree with you .

Going slightly off topic ...... for example . If the rumour is true about LAA wanting to go LMP1 racing and the possibility of the Corvette LS7 engine being released for an LMP1 project . I could see LAA buying O'Courage or Pescarolo chassis , its french and it works ?