Zytek-Nissan versus Judd-BMW LMP2 engines

[knighty]

Have just read that Oak will be replacing the 3.4L BMW Judd LMP2 engine with the 4.5L Nissan unit for LeMans, so two identical chassis and teams running two different engines, can anyone shed any light why they are doing this???.......I guess thay can use the conversion kit that Conquest have already used to do the same job in the ALMS very recently.

From what I can see the Judd engine seems to have made a step-change in performance this year as it appears to be just as fast as the Nissan engined cars, but I'm thinking as ther 3.6L engine will need to rev very high (I'm guessing circa 8 to 10,000rpm compared to the lower revving nature of the 4.5L Nissan engine, this will have a drastic effect on fuel consumption, so I'm guessing the Nissan engine is therefore the more fuel efficient engine to have for less time in the pits at LeMans, due to its bigger capacity it will also produce alot more torque too, so:

1) Power - assumed about equal
2) Torque - Nissan
3) Fuel economy - Nissan
4) Anything else???.....

Is this why the Nissan is now the LMP2 engine to have???.....

[gwyllion]

This is the official explanation given by Jaques Nicolet of Oak Racing.

We have taken this decision as both a manufacturer and racing team. It represents an ideal opportunity to fully understand the car’s performance equipped with both Judd and Nissan engines during the same race conditions throughout the World Endurance Championship’s greatest challenge.
Our partner team Conquest Endurance will also benefit from this experience as their ALMS program already combines a Morgan 2012 LMP2 with Nissan’s engine.

[gwyllion]

According to http://www.oak-racing.com/voiture:car-24&lang=en the Judd HK makes 475 bhp @ 9000 rpm and 406 Nm @ 7000 rpm.

The numbers for the Nissan engine differ depending on the source. According to http://www.zytekmotorsport.co.uk/zyt...ngines/vk45de/ the Nissan VK45DE officially produces 450 bhp and 580 Nm. http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/4...03-Nissan.html states 460 bhp and a rev limit of 7750 rpm, whereas http://signature-team.com/signatech-nissan-voiture.php claims 500 bhp.

On paper the Judd is a bit lighter: 140 kg (dry) vs 150 kg for the Nissan.

[ubrben]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

According to http://www.oak-racing.com/voiture:car-24&lang=en the Judd HK makes 475 bhp @ 9000 rpm and 406 Nm @ 7000 rpm.

The numbers for the Nissan engine differ depending on the source. According to http://www.zytekmotorsport.co.uk/zyt...ngines/vk45de/ the Nissan VK45DE officially produces 450 bhp and 580 Nm. http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/4...03-Nissan.html states 460 bhp and a rev limit of 7750 rpm, whereas http://signature-team.com/signatech-nissan-voiture.php claims 500 bhp.

On paper the Judd is a bit lighter: 140 kg (dry) vs 150 kg for the Nissan.

In a cost-capped category where BoP can be applied I wouldn't believe a word of press releases with power estimates on them.

That's not to say some aren't true, you just have no way of knowing. Especially when aero drag can vary a lot.

Only way to know is bolt one of each in an identical chassis and measure it yourself. Which is what Oak are doing.

Ben

[alexkiller8]

beyond that, oak last year reported that the judd-bmw suffers of over-heating problems that require the use of a bigger and more expensive cooler system. Another "little" detail is that the judd-bmw is a poorly racing updated p65 stock engine, while the VK45 even if shares parts with the road one is closer to a racing born engine than a modified street one...

If the nissan powered oak will run faster than the judd powered one (surely will happen) i think that oak will start to use exclusively nissan engines. Surely also other team will switch the judd for the nissan one!
This will be a huge poor show for judd, after the statement of various drivers about the low power of the 3.4 v8 for lmp1 and after the withdraw of almost all indycar teams that were using the judd/lotus engine.
The company should just hope that nissan won't start to be an engine supplier also in lmp1 with their VRH34... will be the end for them

[knighty]

Very interesting replies folks, I think the issue about the larger cooling package for the Judd is probably the killer........I think Judd did something rather silly with that engine via reducing the capacity, I think as standard its a 4.0 Liter engine, so they decreased the capacity to 3.6 Litres, probably to chase a high power figure and high revs, because that all they know........ in my experience of doing this it always turns into fools-gold situation.........friction increases at the square of rotational speed, so lets say the BMW-Judd is limited to 9000rpm, the Nissan-Zytek to 7750rpm.......so the Judd-BMW creates 26% more friction than Nissan-Zytek, which quite simply is alot more heat generated by the Judd-BMW which will convert into high heat output and poor fuel economy........Judd should have kept the 4.0 capacity or increased it.

I think the only good engine Judd have ever produced is the Gen2 5.5 V10 LMP1 motor, teh rest have been average or a travesty, lets hope they see the light soon........regarding the IRL project, they just started too late, they should have delayed 1 year before entering.

[vincegail]

Aren't Pescarolo complaining/already saying why they won't be competitive because the Judd engine is resonancing a lot so they won't be making it to the finish?

Or are the types of Judd engines in LMP1 and LMP2 so different that this won't be of importance with the "morgan" cars???

[gwyllion]

The complaints are mainly about the Judd LMP1 engine, namely a lack of power compared to the HPD and Toyota V8 and bad reliability (e.g., engine failure for Oak at 12 hours of Sebring and for Pescarolo Dome during shakedown at Bugatti circuit).

The LMP2 engine is substantially different because it is derived from the BMW M3 V8 engine.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by knighty

I think Judd did something rather silly with that engine via reducing the capacity, I think as standard its a 4.0 Liter engine, so they decreased the capacity to 3.6 Litres...

That's what I though was bizarre too. Especially since they had experience with a bigger V10 engine the second generation of which was further increased to 5.5l.

The standard s65 is 4l, there's also a GTS version with 4.4l.

It's also funny how Morgan LMP cars, Morgan - the car company being in partnership with BMW, are ditching BMW engines in favor of Nissan.

[alexkiller8]

the only reason that in my opinion justifies the decrease of displacement is that doing like this, judd obtained an engine with less torque but an higher revlimit hoping to gain more hp (and in theory a better top speed).
The destroked s65 of m3 gts is used also by z4 gt3, for sure with the increase of displacement the engine gained some Nm (however far from 500Nm), but the lack of power remains a recurrent problem...

In my opinion judd should retire for a while, taking the time to produce engines to be in step with the times... if an alternate engine supplier will appear for private teams, no doubts that will happen also in lmp1/2 what is happening now in indy cars.

[Duff_44]

Nissan also had a bunch of experience racing the VK45DE for a couple of years in Japan before turning into an LMP2 engine, so they were already ahead of the game when compared to Honda and Judd.

From the P1 side, if you want to run a private effort, who sells you an engine other than Judd? They're the only ones really building "off the shelf" engines for P1. I know HPD supplied RML for a bit (in P2, those rules now being P1), I wonder if they still do that?

[gwyllion]

I don't understand all this *****ing about Judd engine.

The Judd HK engine produces a decent power output without any BoP adjustments, whereas HPD needs +1.7 mm for the two restrictors. At Spa the Judd equipped cars could match the top speed of the Nissan powered cars.

• #49 Pecom Racing Oreca 03 - Nissan 274.1 km/h
• #48 Murphy Prototypes Oreca 03 - Nissan 272.0 km/h
• #35 Oak Racing Morgan - Judd 271.4 km/h
• #44 Starworks Motorsports HPD ARX 03b - Honda 271.4 km/h
• #24 Oak Racing Morgan - Judd LMP2 269.3 km/h
• #25 ADR-Delta Oreca 03 - Nissan 269.3 5 km/h
• #32 Lotus Lola B12/80 Coupé - Lotus 268.7 km/h
• #23 Signatech Nissan Oreca 03 - Nissan 268.0 km/h
• #26 Signatech Nissan Oreca 03 - Nissan 268.0 km/h
• #30 Status GP Lola B12/80 Coupe - Judd 268.0 km/h
• #28 Gulf Racing Middle East Lola B12/80 Coupé - Nissan 267.3 km/h
• #31 Lotus Lola B12/80 Coupé - Lotus 266.0 km/h
• #38 Jota Zytek Z11SN - Nissan 266.0 km/h
• #41 Greaves Motorsport Zytek Z11SN - Nissan 266.0 km/h
• #45 Boutsen Ginion Racing Oreca 03 - Nissan 265.4 km/h
• #40 Race Performance Oreca 03 - Judd 264.7 km/h
• #29 Gulf Racing Middle East Lola B12/80 Coupé - Nissan 262.1 km/h
• #43 Extreme Limite Aric Norma M200P - Judd 262.1 km/h

As far as I know, the Judd HK engine does not have big reliability issues.

The whole point of the LMP2 cost cap rules is to have a affordable production based race engine. Nismo sort of cheated by starting from an engine had been developed form many years in Super GT. The cost of that development was already spent and hence not included in the price of the VK45DE LMP2 engine.

I think that they have done a good job with the Indycar given the very limited budget and short development time. Very recently they started working on direct fuel injection (100+ bar pressure), which should give them a nice development step in the near future.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Duff_44

From the P1 side, if you want to run a private effort, who sells you an engine other than Judd? They're the only ones really building "off the shelf" engines for P1. I know HPD supplied RML for a bit (in P2, those rules now being P1), I wonder if they still do that?

HPD, Toyota/TMG and Zytek also have a 3.4 NA V8 and Mazda/AER has the 2.0 I4 turbo.

[Duff_44]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

HPD, Toyota/TMG and Zytek also have a 3.4 NA V8 and Mazda/AER has the 2.0 I4 turbo.

I thought the Toyota was an exclusive Rebellion deal, or did that expire?
Mazda, of course...
Forgot about the Zytek, since nobody runs it.

I'll try to exit brainfart mode at some point tonight

[chernaudi]

Like with most things in racing, I'd bet that if you threw TMG enough money, they'll sell you a LMP spec RV8KLM out of their Super GT/Formula Nippon cars. HPD will probably do the same. Problem seems to be the lease price for the factory engines.

As for the LMP2 engines, Honda tried to cobble together a turbocharged version of a relatively lightly modified engine that they use in their sedans, SUVs and minivans. Judd took a performance sedan engine and tinkered with it, and Nissan took a heavily modified stock block V8 engine used in some of their performance cars, larger sedans and SUVs (including Nissan's Infiniti luxury/sports lineup), and they can sell it for dirt cheap because all of the work on it had been done to turn it into a race engine years ago.

Pushing the spirit of the rules? Yes, probably, but it complies with the letter of the rules, and I hope that people won't argue the point that Nissan is owned by Renault and that this is basically a conspiracy to entice Renault back into sportscar racing by coming up with rules that intentionally or inadvertently favor an engine made by one of their divisions.

However, I can see the VK45 maybe serving as the basis for a cheap LMP1 engine under the proposed 2014 rules, which would allow 5 liter-class engines.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Pushing the spirit of the rules? Yes, probably, but it complies with the letter of the rules, and I hope that people won't argue the point that Nissan is owned by Renault and that this is basically a conspiracy to entice Renault back into sportscar racing by coming up with rules that intentionally or inadvertently favor an engine made by one of their divisions.

Actually the Nissan engine is completely within the spirit of the rules. The idea of the production based LMP2 engines was to use engines that had been raced for many years in GT2/GTE.

[chernaudi]

Problem is that the VK45 was a Super GT engine, and I'm fairly certain that in Super GT you can get away with a lot more than under the GT2/GTE regs, although that's now questionable with all the waivers that almost everyone in the class now has. I don't think that a high-revving, flatcrank V8 is what the rules makers intended, but then again, the BMW M3 GTR have a similarly modified engine, so who knows, but the Nissan engine has the benefit of having all of that work done on it back in 2006, which of course is several years ago now, and fits within the cost cap rules because of that.

[ep16]

Didn't toyota anounce they could supply and maintain a further two P1 RV8KLM as long as they are fitted in a Lola chassis...?

Back to Nissan Vs Judd-BMW. it would be a shame for another team to go nissan 'cos the judd engine is just getting better and better and has been much improved since last season. Remember how fast Status were at Paul Ricard? However, with how expensive modern motorsport is most teams want a package that will win them races NOW, not next year. Same problem aston had with the V8 Vantage GT2, 3 different teams in 3 years. Not good for development...

[ger80]

More LMP2 engines to come?

John Dagys ‏@johndagys

@Foxtrotzed actually both of the to-be-announced DP engines should be making their way into LMP2 as well.

[alexkiller8]

well engines used in DP are street derivated... no surprise that in theory could be used also in lmp2 cars

[FstrthnU]

Originally Posted by ger80

More LMP2 engines to come?

I think we can reasonably say that one of the engines will be a Mazda engine (but different from the AER engine Dyson uses right now).

Libra already uses the Ford Roush-Yates engine, so the 2nd engine is still a mystery...

[joeb]

Originally Posted by FstrthnU

I think we can reasonably say that one of the engines will be a Mazda engine (but different from the AER engine Dyson uses right now).

Libra already uses the Ford Roush-Yates engine, so the 2nd engine is still a mystery...

Aston v8?

[jdetray]

The two Lotus runners in Sunday's Indianapolis 500, Jean Alesi and Simona de Silvestro, were black flagged for not maintaining 105% of the leader's speed. Alesi said he wants to try Indy again next year.

- Jeff

[knighty]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

well engines used in DP are street derivated... no surprise that in theory could be used also in lmp2 cars

actually I'm amazed no team has done this yet, the V8 DP engines are cracking motors pushing circa 500bhp, semi stressed and developed for restrictors, I should imagine some re-work is required (mapping) but not a great deal.......the 5.0L capacity will be great for more torque and low rpms which will greatly improve fuel economy compared the the higher revving 4.5L and 3.6L engines from Zytek and Judd.......perhaps its about to happen from what dagys says, will be interesting to watch.

I wondered why the Lotus's IRL powered cars did so few laps, so thats why, well what an embarrassemnt.......is this all down to a lack of direct injection, I dont think so, really Judd started the project way too late and they have no formal turbo experience, I just dont think Judd can hold a candle to Ilmor or HPD's resources, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

[frenchyben]

Originally Posted by knighty

actually I'm amazed no team has done this yet, the V8 DP engines are cracking motors pushing circa 500bhp, semi stressed and developed for restrictors, I should imagine some re-work is required (mapping) but not a great deal.......the 5.0L capacity will be great for more torque and low rpms which will greatly improve fuel economy compared the the higher revving 4.5L and 3.6L engines from Zytek and Judd.......perhaps its about to happen from what dagys says, will be interesting to watch.

I wondered why the Lotus's IRL powered cars did so few laps, so thats why, well what an embarrassemnt.......is this all down to a lack of direct injection, I dont think so, really Judd started the project way too late and they have no formal turbo experience, I just dont think Judd can hold a candle to Ilmor or HPD's resources, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

I feel that they can if given enough money as Judd is a business and ought to be profitable. So knowing Lotus payment terms, it makes sense that they have not put the full effort into the engine...

In terms of fuel efficiency, I would have thought that the LMP2 engine are more fuel efficient than the DP engine but, as you say, happy to be proven wrong.

Having had a look at the figure, the Judd and Nissan are very very close on performance. Having said that, the Judd presents two major advantages for some LMP2 teams:
1) you can lease it rather that purchase that puts strain on your cash flow...
2) you can re-brand it (Lotus, Rebellion...)