Oil for historic engines

[morninggents]

I've used Valvoline Racing VR1 20W/50 mineral oil in a Lotus Twincam for several years but was advised recently by a fellow historic racer that the oil has changed a while back - he thought the zinc content had been removed or reduced. Does anyone on these hallowed pages know anything about it? His view was that this oil is no good anymore.

Back in the day I always used Duckhams Q 20/50 or Mobil/Shell/Esso Uniflo if they sponsored a race and gave out freebies (as often happened then). Does Duckhams Q 20/50 still exist and if it does is it the same as it was? What other oils do folks here use?

I always understood that mineral oils were better than synthetics for these engines - any truth in this?

[Ex User]

We always use valvoline racing in the classic road cars we work on. We work on Ferraris, Alfa Romeos,maserarti etc and have never had a problem. My dad is a engine builder by trade and he won't generally use anything else, the only time is if it is not the correct grade for the job.

[GORDON STREETER]

I like you Pete used to use road going mineral oil years ago but moved on to modern fully synthetic.
I also ran Valvoline 20/50 for a while as it was supplied by one of my sponsors FOC, although I don't remember having any real problems with it I did have a kettle element in the dry sump tank and warm it up before the start (especially on short races)
For the last 20 years I have used 10/60 fully synthetic again supplied by a sponsor and the only problem I have had was a leak in a long race that emptied the tank and put me out of the race on the last lap when I was leading by the proverbial mile !
As for what brand ? I don't think there is much in it IMHO although some people will differ saying that " I ruined an engine on Brand X" when it was possibly nothing to do with the actual lubricant.
Lets face it modern road cars get loads of abuse and rarely suffer from problems on synthetic oil and keep going for thousands of miles of stop/starting and then murdered up the motorway and go a lot further between oil changes than our track cars.
Saying all this the old saying "if it ain't f****d don't fix it" comes to mind !

[terence]

I agree with Gordon,although I used to use Millers in the B.Always having to replace the cam at seasons end. Then switched to Motul 300 Enduro 10/60,cam lasted for five seasons!

[Robyn Slater]

I use Motul 300v.

At Cadwell earlier this year the oil pump drive failed and i lost oil pressure,full chat at the top of the mountain,i coasted, engine still running to the pit lane.When i stripped the engine the only damage was a slight pick-up of whitemetal on one of the bigend shells.

I would reccommend Motul,its not cheap but its bloody good oil.

BTW if you want any i can offer a good discount.

[GORDON STREETER]

That's two Anglias that I know run on it !

[Al Weyman]

The Uniroyal green stuff was good and cheap. Halfords do a similar product also for older engines that I have used and seems OK. Also not too bad a price compared to synthetics which I now use since going over to roller cams.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by Robyn Slater

I use Motul 300v.

I would reccommend Motul,its not cheap but its bloody good oil.

BTW if you want any i can offer a good discount.

Presumably it comes in 4 or 5 litre cans. What's the damage, then, Robyn?

What oil changes, Gordon? It's a Lotus twincam and it's got the continuous oil change system fitted!

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by morninggents

What oil changes, Gordon? It's a Lotus twincam and it's got the continuous oil change system fitted!

I forgot they had a total loss oil system as standard

[zefarelly]

we caned the Harrington in 35 degree heat on Motul at LeMans. faultless, their gear oils are very good as well.

another very good alternative is Joe GIbbs, from AAOC ( fuel at all the meetings) as the septics run prehistoric engines they still produce high zinc oils which are great for pushrod motors, and certainly won't hurt a twink . .. I tend to use them on new engines ( they do an assembly grease I use all the time, and a break in oil too) and then, on those with proper oil seals we've switched to 10/60 synth like Gordon after they've done a few hours running/testing . . . the synth works very well, and lasts longer, which offsets the cost a little . . . although, like petrol, its peanuts compared to the engine parts!

[Mike Bell]

Getting repetitive, but Motul 300V 15W50 always in Gilbern (MGB) and Morgan (TR). Just for a change Fuchs Silkolene in Escort BDG. Millers semi synth 20W60 in FF Pinto. Halfords 10W40 in Porker....

[zefarelly]

does that say somethiong about the Porkers strength, or your pecking order? I'm guessing the latter!)

Motul 300V 15W50 is what the Harrington ( Rootes precrossflow type pushrod) ran on . . .

I have to say I thought/think my gearbox is noisier with the thinner Motul, but it works, and it wasn't exactly quiet beforehand.

and the colours nice . . .easy to see leaks!!!

[Erictharg]

I've often heard that older engines need mineral oils but seen no facts to support it. Have run my A Series on Total Quartz 10-50 synthetic for this season with no problems, and saved several oil changes I'd have had with the old Valvoline 20-50 VR1.
The Valvoline was fine but I felt the need to change it every other race. Whereas I'm happy changing the synthetic twice a year. Plus 5 litres of the Total is cheaper than the VR1. Why would you not run the proven better oil?
Any facts or data out there?

[Al Weyman]

The reason earlier engines need mineral oil with an ash contact as far as I have always read is because they generally use a flat tappet camshaft and usually with pushrods. If that's converted to a roller cam you are then OK to use the fully synthetic stuff as the greatest wear and friction in an engine is between the surfaces of the cam and follower, a roller cam eliminates this friction. They also run cooler and produce more BHP and/or fuel economy which is why Chevrolet went over to rollers in all their V8's and V6's not for performance alone but for more economy.

[zefarelly]

Flat tappet motors like Zinc phosphate . . . . for anti wear, something thats slowly dissapearing from modern oils as the engines they're designed for have so little frictional loss and wear charecteristics , at least thats my understanding.

the engine I've been running this last 15 months has been bed in on Joe Gibbs mineral then run on 15/50h with zddp thrown in . . . so far so good and Its been given some serious stick and done 1hr+ races.

[morninggents]

Joe, I mentioned that the zinc had either been reduced or taken out completely from Valvoline in my opening post, but not sure if this is true. Does the Motul 300 that you, and most others, seem to favour have a good zinc content?

[GORDON STREETER]

Dont know about zinc content but I know it works fine and I have no trouble with it.
Lets face it Pete oils have come a long way in the last few years and I would dare to say that a decent fully synthetic normal road oil would be OK to use in a race car (it's bloody expensive enough !)
What a lot of people don't realize is that more damage is done by not warming oils up before the engine is "thrashed" than running hot. This is where fully synthetic oils gain as they are like p**s from cold !

[wnut]

If I may make a suggestion.

Why don't you phone up one of the major oil companies, all of whom have whole technical departments dedicated to the best use of their products, a very nice chap who has had 40 years of experience in lubricating all sorts of odd things and solving the car manufacturers various problems and design faults will consult a whole bunch of his colleagues on your behalf and recommend the best solution to your problem.

These guys are really helpful and know exactly what's in their oils and what it is designed to do.

If they won't help you, go to the next company and they will help you.

[Al Weyman]

Just finished a forty minute race in the Chevy with no oil cooler running a base Exol fully synthetic good value from eBay and she still had 60 psi at end of race. Its a 5/30 oil and I fail to see the sence in paying more when this product is certified to meet current manufacturers standards.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

. Its a 5/30 oil and I fail to see the sence in paying more when this product is certified to meet current manufacturers standards.

Agreed Al, my turbo transit runs on it and that is the recommended oil from Ford. However I tend to use a thicker weight synthetic in my racer.
F1 cars don't use a multi million pound secret formula oil !

[Riggaz]

Originally Posted by morninggents

I've used Valvoline Racing VR1 20W/50 mineral oil in a Lotus Twincam for several years but was advised recently by a fellow historic racer that the oil has changed a while back - he thought the zinc content had been removed or reduced. Does anyone on these hallowed pages know anything about it? His view was that this oil is no good anymore.

Back in the day I always used Duckhams Q 20/50 or Mobil/Shell/Esso Uniflo if they sponsored a race and gave out freebies (as often happened then). Does Duckhams Q 20/50 still exist and if it does is it the same as it was? What other oils do folks here use?

I always understood that mineral oils were better than synthetics for these engines - any truth in this?

Duckhams is no more and is in the process of being sold off as well as Veedol by BP. The Valvoline VR1 20w-50 still has ZDDP in it at high levels, about 1200 ppm, a material data sheet will confirm this. Morris Lubricants make an excellent 15w-50 Classic Motorsport oil with about 1200 ppm of ZDDP. Oils for modern cars have restrictions on the amount of ZDDP additive because it has a detrimental effect on the lifespan of catalytic converters and diesel particulate filters which clog up with the ash that is produced when ZDDP is burned in the cylinders but all apart from very select few still have ZDDP in them. It's important to remember that in the 40's 50's and 60's most oils had levels of ZDDP that were lower than the restricted oils of today (less than 800 ppm) so ZDDP is not the be all and and all and too much ZDDP can attack the metal, it's just a last resort when the oil film has failed as it provides a sacrificial layer to prevent metal to metal contact.

Choosing an oil with the right flow and quality additive pack for the engine is the way forward as thicker is not always better, remember as soon as your oil pressure relief valve opens you are getting no extra oil flow as it's being dumped back into the sump. The cam is not getting properly lubed as the oil is not getting up to the head, the crank is not getting lubed and cooled properly as there is not enough flow to create hydrodynamic lubrication (which is like the bearings aquaplaning on the oil because so much oil is flowing between them), only boundary lubrication (relying on the strength of the oil film). The engine with the correct oil flow rate will run cooler and release more power whilst also providing better protection. 10psi per 1000 revs seems to be a good guide.

An acquaintance of mine was speaking to the Auto Union engineers at the Goodwood Revival and although the oil for their engines is specially blended for them they told him it's pretty much a dual API rated 15w-40 (petrol and diesel) heavy duty diesel oil and that mineral oil was king. They did not rate synthetics. Synthetics are great for the right application but many people, using used oil analysis confirm high quality mineral oils with high quality additive package giving lower wear than synthetics tried in the same engine.

hope this helps

Riggaz

[Riggaz]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

Agreed Al, my turbo transit runs on it and that is the recommended oil from Ford. However I tend to use a thicker weight synthetic in my racer.
F1 cars don't use a multi million pound secret formula oil !

F1 teams do have oils blended specifically for their engines. Not just one for their engines, but several for different tracks/climatic conditions, i heard an interview with Lisa Lilley from Shell and she says they have about three different oils blended for the Ferrari engine. Total/Elf will do the same for the Renault engines and Cosworth will have a range of oils blended for their engines.

[JohnD]

Interesting discussion in depth of the history of lubrication and engine oils, with advice on choosing an oil for a classic or historic car.
"Which oil?"
http://www.veloce.co.uk/shop/product...up=Performance Tuning & Modification&
John

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Riggaz

F1 teams do have oils blended specifically for their engines. Not just one for their engines, but several for different tracks/climatic conditions, i heard an interview with Lisa Lilley from Shell and she says they have about three different oils blended for the Ferrari engine. Total/Elf will do the same for the Renault engines and Cosworth will have a range of oils blended for their engines.

Yes but for different reasons. not wear rate as they have a limited life anyway but for the best HP performance in different temperatures, I also have inside information from a top F1 team and I mean a "top team" !
It's also not anything "super duper" as oils can't get that much better than what is produced for top end cars for the road .

[Riggaz]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

Yes but for different reasons. not wear rate as they have a limited life anyway but for the best HP performance in different temperatures, I also have inside information from a top F1 team and I mean a "top team" !
It's also not anything "super duper" as oils can't get that much better than what is produced for top end cars for the road .

Agreed, they will obviously make them to protect as much as possible because engine changes mean grid place drops but it will always be, like you say, to get max horsepower out of the engine

race oils like that tend to have less additives like detergents/dispersants but more anti wear additives in them than road car oils