[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[YorkshireLad]

Porsche only had the advantage at spa at the start of the straight, Audi was faster towards the end of the Kemmel straight. I expect to see Porsche/Audi cat and mouse the whole race.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by YorkshireLad

Porsche only had the advantage at spa at the start of the straight, Audi was faster towards the end of the Kemmel straight. I expect to see Porsche/Audi cat and mouse the whole race.

That is something that is simply not borne out by the figures:
#7 Average top speed = 294.6
#8 Average top speed = 295.09
#17 Average top speed = 303.32
#18 Average top speed = 302.42
#19 Average top speed = 300.64

All in and Out laps removed from the data.

[Artur]

I'm sorry guys, the net incomes I posted are in billions of dollars, no millions as stated. It's just that it's just much more common to have values like budgets, and even net profits, in millions that I automatically wrote that way.

TF110 , I realized that your claim is not exactly correct(the combined part) because if you combine VAG's net income with BMW's, it's already bigger than Toyotas :
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=BMW....atement&annual
BMW's = $6.3 billion dollars(5.8 in euros)
GM had much less = $2.8 billion dollars while Mercedes(Daimler) had $5.3 billion

[GasperG]

I didn't check the numbers but he was talking about profit, not about net income.

Spa is a type of circuit where you have one long straight and 3 short ones, where it's probably better to wait for that long straight with most of the hybrid energy, Toyota can't do that. LeMans has 4 very long straights and 3 not so long straights, ERS boost can be distributed more evenly, I really hope Toyota finds it's pace at LeMans

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Artur

VAG is the top company in R&D investment, though. While Toyota is only 7th and this two are the only car manufacturers among the top 10:
http://fortune.com/2014/11/17/top-10...h-development/

Pretty huge figures, I would have guessed much smaller. More support for my unpopular view that racing isn't about future road cars.

[sssssssss]

Originally Posted by Articus

They have still always been ahead of Audi in a straightline haven't they?

they weren't. at spa, definitely not. audi's high downforce package has A WHOLE LOT more downforce than toyota's, that's why the high downforce audi is slower in a straight line. but their 'lower' df package at spa, which was faster on the high df curves than ANYBODY ELSE, was considerably faster on the straights as well. pretty much comparable to porsche. i suspect their le mans package is even more trimmed out for straight line speed. also, at spa, the momentum created by porsche's 8mj system is much more handy than at le mans. porsche have been significantly faster last year as well down the kemmel straight, yet at le mans both audi and toyota were noticeably faster (both hitting 355 km/h while porsche only hit 334 km/h).

[sssssssss]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

But according to this, Porsche is the least powerful and has the lowest top speed.

i think those top speed figures are based on what the cars were producing at le mans last year (not considering slipstreams and hybrid boost to pass slower cars), where both audi and toyota were going about 340 km/h at the end of mulsanne 1, while porsche was around 333 km/h. that's also why you don't see any nissan figures, because they weren't at lm last year.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by sssssssss

i think those top speed figures are based on what the cars were producing at le mans last year (not considering slipstreams and hybrid boost to pass slower cars), where both audi and toyota were going about 340 km/h at the end of mulsanne 1, while porsche was around 333 km/h. that's also why you don't see any nissan figures, because they weren't at lm last year.

Agreed!

[MyNameIsNigel]

Time to spot the differences...





(source: Endurance-Info.com)

I wonder what is the actual purpose of those parts made of clear/transparent material on the trailing edge of the rear wing endplates. Diffusing the light produced by the "rain" lights that are supposed to be integrated there ?

[PascaLM]

According to Endurance-Info :
- Kazuki Nakajima est présent sur le circuit du Mans. Blessé lors des 6 Heures de Spa, le pilote du Toyota Gazoo Racing pourrait bien piloter la TS040 HYBRID #1 ce dimanche après un passage devant le médecin de la FIA.
K . Nakajima is present at Le Mans. He could drive the TS040 next Sunday after a check-up with a doctor of the FIA.

[kvenom]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Time to spot the differences...


(source: Endurance-Info.com)

I wonder what is the actual purpose of those parts made of clear/transparent material on the trailing edge of the rear wing endplates. Diffusing the light produced by the "rain" lights that are supposed to be integrated there ?

See that metal connector at the top of the endplate between the plexi/painted part? That is actually a hinge on top which rotates the endplate pylons thus allowing the wing angle to change at speed. Clever stuff Toyota, clever stuff.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by kvenom

See that metal connector at the top of the endplate between the plexi/painted part? That is actually a hinge on top which rotates the endplate pylons thus allowing the wing angle to change at speed. Clever stuff Toyota, clever stuff.

I actually doubt that this plexiglas part is hinged onto the rear-wing endplate. That would be a too obvious solution infringing the ban on movable bodywork elements.

My best guess is that this has something to do with the rear lights integrated in the trailing edge of the rear wing endplates. Some optical diffuser.

[kvenom]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

I actually doubt that this plexiglas part is hinged onto the rear-wing endplate. That would be a too obvious solution infringing the ban on movable bodywork elements.

My best guess is that this has something to do with the rear lights integrated in the trailing edge of the rear wing endplates. Some optical diffuser.

Clearly my joke wasn't funny lol.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by kvenom

Clearly my joke wasn't funny lol.

Well, I guess I did not get the joke.

Smilies may potentially help next time

[kvenom]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Well, I guess I did not get the joke.

Smilies may potentially help next time

It was just poking fun/sarcasm directed at last year's wing-gate scandal that burned through many many pages. I tried to make it as obvious as possible while still sounding serious haha.

[Artur]

Originally Posted by GasperG

I didn't check the numbers but he was talking about profit, not about net income.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/n/netincome.asp

net income = profit

I hope Toyota, given their very healthy finances, puts more money in TMG so that they can properly develop the aero of their LMP1. I wish we had seen quite comprehenive differences in the car

[TF110]

The problem is not aero. Its the hybrid, at least at some wec tracks. Lets see how it does here at Le Mans. Theyre not going to be hunting for hard braking areas to recharge the capacitor. Silverstone and Spa dont have near the amount of hard braking that LM has. Where the capacitor works best is immediately afterward. Thats why places like Fuji and COTA suit their car.

I think we'll see a brand new engine and hybrid either next year or '17.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by TF110

The problem is not aero. Its the hybrid.

That's not completely true. aero IS part of the problem. These cars did not look good through the corners at Silverstone and Spa.

[cokata]

Originally Posted by Articus

That's not completely true. aero IS part of the problem. These cars did not look good through the corners at Silverstone and Spa.

I agree. The aero and the hybrid are the main culprits. The hybrid system was designed with the old "hybrid recovery" zones in mind. It is great for capturing energy quickly and releasing it quickly. Back than the minimum weight was much higher and they had 6 speed boxes (a lot of weight to play with for the hybrid system).

Now the minimum weight is lower and they have to recover a lot more energy than before, and it seems that the supercap is too heavy for such applications. Still think though that their approach of not using an exhaust recovery is the correct one. It will be interesting to see how they will fare next year.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by TF110

I think we'll see a brand new engine and hybrid either next year or '17.

It better be 16 or they'll look at another transitional year.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Articus

That's not completely true. aero IS part of the problem. These cars did not look good through the corners at Silverstone and Spa.

So? Porsche didnt look any more spectacular through turns. Only Audi runs such high levels of downforce. Toyota dont need to have extreme levels of wing. Most tracks are stop-go in nature which works fine with a mixed level aero package. I said it before, Audi can afford to run lots of wing with the torque they have. Porsche makes up for it (lower downforce) with their extra hybrid boost and ability to use it whenever, wherever. Toyota have neither. They rely on low drag and the capacitor.

Problem is, it cant store energy like the Porsche's batteries. Neither can it recover energy as easily. Spa has turn 1, the end of the kemmel straight, maybe the entrance of turn 13 and into the bus stop as 'major' braking areas. Those are the places Toyota relies on for recharging the capacitor. Audi may be the same, but theyre relying a lot less on the hybrid side because of the diesel and because theyre 4mj vs 6mj.

Compare that to Le Mans where theres so many different places of hard braking, Spa and especially Silverstone are not a great indication of what Toyota should be able to do. Even look to last year with Porsche beating Toyota to pole at Spa. That changed at Le Mans. Im not expecting that to happen again, but I feel LM is totally different from what weve seen so far and Toyota should be way closer, hopefully!

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Acid09

It better be 16 or they'll look at another transitional year.

Rob Leupen clearly said in an interview with RLM at the Prologue that a brand-new powertrain is coming for 2016.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Rob Leupen clearly said in an interview with RLM at the Prologue that a brand-new powertrain is coming for 2016.

Batteries, I assume? And a new NA block I would have thought.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by J Jay

Batteries, I assume? And a new NA block I would have thought.

Rumor says turbocharged engine, but time is short to get it ready for 2016...

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Rumor says turbocharged engine, but time is short to get it ready for 2016...

Depends on when they started work on it, maybe they wanted it for 2015 but the timeframe was too short so they pushed it to 2016.

Plus they still have the Super GT/Super Formula 2-liter turbo 4-cyl engine to possibly work from as a base.