What is wrong with Redbull?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by wnut

and they are now having their success and brand ruined by a supplier who they pay massive amounts of money to for a competitive engine.

Oh, I didn't address this one point enough. I get it. I do. They are over spending and getting less than promised. They have a right to be angry. But... they could very well end up in the same position next year with another supplier even if they make the best decision today using the knowledge available to them at this moment. Imagine Ferrari somehow taking a step backwards over the winter. Or not moving forward enough compared to the others.

Richard

[wnut]

I think most of RBR's angst actually springs from the fact that they can't change anything, so they are basically not allowed to be competitive.

You can accept your short comings, it is very difficult to know what they are and not be allowed to fix them! Just go through the motions for the season!

Personally I would struggle with this philosophy!

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by HDTVKSS

If you believe whats going on in the press at the moment then as far as I can see its all over besides the official notice.

The difference between RBR and the other teams such as Williams and McLaren that people are mentioning is that RBR exists as an extension of its parent organisation as an investment \ promotional tool where the return must justify the expense. The other teams exist as a pure race team and their identity and survival is based on their presence in F1. RBR does not have this constraint. Its similar to Mercedes or Honda - its a promotional tool and the survival of the organisation is not tied to F1. they can theoretically come and go as they please providing they have the capital investment.

Its interesting to see RBR take the Ferrari route in this and threaten to pull the rip cord. I think that unlike Ferrari RBR is more than willing to move ahead with it and not look back. If you go to something like Red Bulls apple TV channel they have their finger in so may pies that F1 really is just another piece of a very complex puzzle.

As for Renault, they are equally to blame as RBR in this. The 1st year of the new regs it was reported that the engine was the slowest, and also the most expensive! no wonder Lotus ran as far as they could. ive also seen referenced that Renault hasnt got the teams or investment involved to catch up. Merc has what 500 staff just working on the Engine alone? i saw figures that Renault had closer to 200 - 250. Way to catch up there.....

As for the " we were a partner, we want recognition" ummm, no. You were a supplier and you provided a product that was inferior for more money, that came out of the blocks worse in the 2nd year than the 1st. Im interested to see how long the delusion lasts when they buy Lotus. I guess the best revenge will be if they come out of the blocks with a stonking revise engine - id say that RBR has seen the figures and isn't convinced.

As for those that say, so long and good riddance - I think F1 will be much the poorer for them not being there. F1 has somewhat of an identity issue and to see a youth based brand just pack up and walk away is not good. no one in the oligarchy seems to give a crap besides Bernie which is interesting given his previous take on youth based brands in F1. Id say all the other teams see is a bigger slice of the revenue pie - which is a nice thought while the revenue exists in a shrinking audience.

the other great tragedy in this will be the loss of the youth teams. while they have been criticised for tossing younger talent if they dont make the grade, i really think thats unfair and there are plenty of drivers that have hit the scrap heap from other teams when the cheques have bounced. Hartley has shown that it is possible to make a decent career once removed from the RBR gravy train. That said, an F1 without Ricciardo, Sainz, Verstappen, Kvyat seems all the much bleaker doesn't it?

I think Red Bull will either buy F1 in total or will be the F1 title sponsor, this would enable them to place drivers in cars ( if they wanted to keep young talent coming up), like they used to do before buying Jaguar. In many ways it would give them much more freedom to promote their F1 involvement and Red Bull. At the moment they are dependent on the success of the teams and after a good run DM is now seeing the other side of the coin and the challenge of getting all the right things in place. By owning or sponsoring F1 you have a constant and F1 would also have a real promoter and marketeer in place that would invest in the championship.

[chunterer]

Surely there's a huge conflict of interest by owning/running a series and also sponsoring teams or drivers that compete in it???

[Paradise City]

I think Red Bull will basically exit the sport and attempt to offload those teams. They are in a tight spot that's closing in them and there's no light at the end of tunnel.

Red Bull has won races and championships. They've done what they needed to do and can exit the sport satisfied.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I think Red Bull will basically exit the sport and attempt to offload those teams. They are in a tight spot that's closing in them and there's no light at the end of tunnel.

Red Bull has won races and championships. They've done what they needed to do and can exit the sport satisfied.

They can afford to be in a tight spot, they certainly aren't about to go broke like a number of other teams. They could just fold the whole lot and walk away, that would send a huge message to the rest of the F1 stakeholders and their involvement with the 12 metre project could soak up a lot of the personnel and the facilities they have built up over the years. I doubt it would happen but it could and it is getting so close to the end of the year it would be difficult to see how they could build a competitive car from this short time out. I think that issue is the biggest problem, they need the PU to design & build the next car and it must be getting to the point of no return for them to do that. The idea of them buying the category has certainly been floated by some observers who have nothing better to do than fantasize about what might or could happen and get paid for it. I do that and no one pays me.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Surely there's a huge conflict of interest by owning/running a series and also sponsoring teams or drivers that compete in it???

Really, imagine if they had a scholarship scheme down the ladder whereby the GP3 winner moved to GP2 and the GP2 winner automatically was able to move to F1 and the promoter provided a seat in a team.

This would help all the under funded drivers we all keep moaning about.

At the moment it's arguable that the current promoter has more of a conflict of interest as FOM is supposed to be the overall championship promoter, yet favours some teams financially over others and Ferrari in particular - and that is before they have turned a wheel.

Surely as a promoter you should be impartial and award prize money on results?

[chillibowl]

contractually what is the cost/penalty to RB if they pull out of F1 prior to 2020?

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

contractually what is the cost/penalty to RB if they pull out of F1 prior to 2020?

Reported as 500M - presume that is euro's? Although I am sure there will be many movements behind the scenes before we get to that stage!

[Casper]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

contractually what is the cost/penalty to RB if they pull out of F1 prior to 2020?

Why would they care? if they could afford to think about leaving it is not really an issue to them. If they then gave the F1 the finger and said sue us then that could get interesting as it could be argued that the regulations in place forced them out. The court case would be awesome as all the dirty little deals would be subject to scrutiny and I doubt anyone would want that.

[chillibowl]

because if its 500mil for them to leave then merc or ferrari are potentially walking away from a sale worth up to 500mil.

RB are reportedly spending 24mil per year for under powered Renault PUs...how much would they pay for two supplies of better engines for the next 5 years?

Wolff and Arrivabene like to say things like they dont want to supply RB for competition reasons but multi billion dollar corps who own sports teams dont turn down half a billion dollar worth of contracts because the head coach says so.

i guess my point is that far too much is being made from the public comments coming from the teams with really nothing coming from those who have the final say so on business decisions...ie the board and shareholders.

[Moneyseeker]

I can't see DM handing over 500m for nothing, might do for equity though, from BE's share?

[Paradise City]

It's damaging for Red Bull to break agreements and leave the sport in a way that's messy. Could they bear it, sure they could. But noone wants to sink XX million in a messy departure wobbling about with third hand Ferraris. It maybe the smart thing to do once the maths are all added up, without a credible powerplant anywhere on the horizon and thus no prospect in winning for years and years on end - and all of that with TWO teams on the books!

It just comes down to what DM is thinking. He's been in the sport since Berger in the 80s. Is his threat to depart sabre rattling to rouse a deaf ear or is he deadly serious? Like alot of these enigmatic billionaires, it's hard to read him but what's locked in DMs mind is what it all comes down to.

[Mike Harte]

There is a lot more to this saga, and I think that we are unlikely to find out half of it. It has been reported in various outlets that there is some long-term bad blood between Dieter Mateschitz and Mercedes Benz, although I am not aware that any one has actually spelt out what their differences are. The net result is that it is said by Mercedes, on more than one occasion recently, that Red Bull haven't even approached them for a supply of PSUs, but that they wouldn't supply them anyway.

If Red Bull were to walk away, I don't think that there is very much that FOM or the FIA could do to stop them. I am certain that Red Bull would be able to adequately demonstrate that they had been coerced into signing an unfair contract, and to back that up, why! only recently two other teams have registered a formal complaint about how Formula 1 is run and how it's finances are distributed unfairly.

Yet again, Todt is asleep at the wheel of the crashing vehicle that is F1. It's long past the time when the patients should be stopped from running the asylem, and a real doctor be put in charge.

[steve_r]

So we are saying that Red Bull have fallen out with Renault AND Mercedes?

Sounds like they have backed themselves into a corner, and will have little bargaining power with Ferrari (apart from $$$$$) because there is no alternative power units available (unless they want Hondas second string engines - ha ha).

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

There is a lot more to this saga, and I think that we are unlikely to find out half of it. It has been reported in various outlets that there is some long-term bad blood between Dieter Mateschitz and Mercedes Benz, although I am not aware that any one has actually spelt out what their differences are. The net result is that it is said by Mercedes, on more than one occasion recently, that Red Bull haven't even approached them for a supply of PSUs, but that they wouldn't supply them anyway.

If Red Bull were to walk away, I don't think that there is very much that FOM or the FIA could do to stop them. I am certain that Red Bull would be able to adequately demonstrate that they had been coerced into signing an unfair contract, and to back that up, why! only recently two other teams have registered a formal complaint about how Formula 1 is run and how it's finances are distributed unfairly.

Yet again, Todt is asleep at the wheel of the crashing vehicle that is F1. It's long past the time when the patients should be stopped from running the asylem, and a real doctor be put in charge.

Yes, you would find it hard to believe that a global corporation would sign any contract that commited them without any exit.

I didn't see the JPGP to see how Horner was looking, but it looks like his plan B was working out OK until the VAG scandal which has tipped up the apple cart. I am sure RBR would have taken what Ferrari offered for a two year stop gap until Audi rocked up with a 'works' engine.

[Moneyseeker]

Whilst we are considering the FOM implications, we ought to remember the 4 x drivers - can I put my marker down for Max to be on Ferrari's books in short order......

[Mekola]

Regarding Toro Rosso, whose according Horner is more in trouble than RBR, I think it's high time to Giancarlo Minardi to re-take over his old team.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I think Red Bull will basically exit the sport and attempt to offload those teams. They are in a tight spot that's closing in them and there's no light at the end of tunnel.

Red Bull has won races and championships. They've done what they needed to do and can exit the sport satisfied.

If they do pull out, I would have hoped it's done with some grace because this finger pointing at Renault doesn't come across well and it doesn't behoove a team that has achieved what Red Bull have.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by steve_r

So we are saying that Red Bull have fallen out with Renault AND Mercedes?

Sounds like they have backed themselves into a corner, and will have little bargaining power with Ferrari (apart from $$$$$) because there is no alternative power units available (unless they want Hondas second string engines - ha ha).

Ron Dennis will stop Red Bull getting the Honda Engine ....

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

If they do pull out, I would have hoped it's done with some grace because this finger pointing at Renault doesn't come across well and it doesn't behoove a team that has achieved what Red Bull have.

All in all Red Bull have handled this whole thing rather poorly.. They have tried to throw their weight around and it's just not happening this time ..
No one is buying their BS..

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Ron Dennis will stop Red Bull getting the Honda Engine ....

unless of course he can offload Alonso's contract to them at the same time!

[bjohnsonsmith]

What's wrong with Toro-Rosso seems to be more pressing for Horner, than what is wrong with Red Bull.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121076

[Paradise City]

RBR are the architects of their own misery. Should played it smart and stuck with the Renaults, iffy though they maybe.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by steve_r

So we are saying that Red Bull have fallen out with Renault AND Mercedes?

Sounds like they have backed themselves into a corner, and will have little bargaining power with Ferrari (apart from $$$$$) because there is no alternative power units available (unless they want Hondas second string engines - ha ha).

No, we are saying they have fallen out with Renault and that the head of RB has had a very long and perhaps a pre F1 dislike of MB and no one is saying why. Perhaps he bought a dud car from them at one time...