Crying on Live TV......

[Roy2]

Indeed it is a difficult subject, not for the faint-headed. That's why I seldom attempt it. But if it is to be done it's worthless unless it's done fairly and objectively.

Your psychological dissection may have literary value, but I think it tells me more about you than it does about Michael.

If you want to see it done properly see Dino IV's posts in "The wrong champion" thread. He's a strong Senna appreciator but he's objective enough to give what I think might be a useful explanation of Senna's psychology.

Until you can be fair to Schumacher your postings about him have faint explanatory value, IMO.

[downforce]

freud, youre not drifting to be a Schuey supporter next season are you?

[tkm81]

Seeing TGF crying was(for me anyway) a demonstration of just how much pressure ferrari and TGF himself had placed on the race, he knew that to get back into contention he had to win and he did with a superb drive. the the relief was obvious. Forget the records, they won't win you the title.

[Blackjack]

Does anyone remember Sho-me ever saying Senna was his idol, or him, ever saying anything good about him?

[freud]

Roy 2

Dino IV's post is legendary, I'm just a Freud fan. In my opinion the world around us is about interaction. For example, in formula one there are 22 drivers. Now all of us have certain criteria of judging a f1 driver to either like him, dislike him or ignore him. We may want to see particular habits or personalities. I, for example like Mika, Jacques, Fisichella and Verstappen because I feel they are real nice guys and drive very fast. They display a personality of ignorance in many ways. They havent tried to malign their fellow drivers in any way(except jacques may be, sometimes).

Why do you like Schumacher? I cant say anything about you but what I've seen of him, I've mentioned some in my post above. People even said he laughed after Senna's death, which I never believed but the comments left an impact on me. The law of probability says that could've happened. Similiarly he likes punting cars off-track, which any body is intelligent enough to admit. However I dont disagree with him because if he wants to win he has to do so. But it says a little bit about his personality. He likes playing mind games on his opponents, a trait I dont like. People even said that he drinks only Milk and Apple juice and have never touched alcohol in his life, I doubt that too.

[AL Racing]

Originally posted by freud
Indeed Psychology is a difficult subject.

Oh, tell us more Sigmund!

[Peter Mallett]

Actually AL, I think he just did.

The topic title does give room for expansion of the subject beyond MS last week. As I have already said I did not see the incident so I can't comment per se. However I have been known to comment on the phenomenon and I see in Freud's posting and others an interesting slant.

I recall the Mika in the bushes incident last year and all the castigation & derision he got from the board members for his breakdown at that time. Then when I expressed my thoughts about RB's display this year (I thought it contrived for the audiences although I'll admit he was probably highly charged at the time) I was the subject of the castigation. Apparently I insulted an entire nation!

Now, when we see the "Iron Man" breaking down there is a whole new slant on it. I find that confusing.

I said elsewhere that Max once stated that there would be more interest in the off track "actions" rather than the racing and he was aiming for that to feed the "family" audiences.

Now, when the whole thing is being directed by PR people and the media is concentrating on these tears rather than the substance (i.e. racing ) we appear to be surprised.

I don't like it. I think it belittles the drivers and the enthusiasts. (I don't mean showing emotion belittles the drivers) If they really feel the need to cry (and who can blame them at times) then please TV companies draw a veil over it so that we can make our own minds up.

The next topic will be "Well did Irv cry when his girlfriend walked out on him?"

[Red]

Freud.
The keyword is "feel". You "feel" Jacques, Mika, Giancarlo and Jos are nice guys. You "feel" Michael is an arrogant guy, but actually you don't "know" them. They are ALL nice guys. Of course I don't "know" that either, but I "feel" and like to believe I'm right. It is difficult to make psychology two hours a day, 17 "sessions" = 34 hours a year, in front of the TV. No, it's easy. Difficult is to achieve results.

Can you rephrase "he likes punting cars off-track, which any body is intelligent enough to admit"? Well, I for one suspect he has other hobbies and I like to believe that I have a reasonable IQ. (Gosh, how I like strong pieces of evidence like "it's obvious" or "everybody knows it"!)

Mind games, can you work a little bit more on that? The only "mind-game" I can recall this year was "Mika is the main competitor". Indeed, David had more points at that time and "no-team-orders" but it was a question and an answer, and - surprise-surprise - he was right! Look no further than Mika when he said (before Silverstone?) "David can have a good race but will never be faster". Looks like he was right too. Mind-games? Both paid revenues? I don't feel so. On the other hand, Schumacher overtaking Hill in the formation-lap, twice, now that was mind-game, but somehow I "feel" Flavio was behind all that thinking.

"the man in the lighter blue car got his prey"???

Now, where were we? Oh yes, Crying on Live TV. Peter, "please TV companies draw a veil over". Right! What we saw Sunday was "May we have a break?" "Gentlemen this is live television".

[freud]

OK lets cut the BS and come straight to the point. Since the initial shock of MS crying is over now, many people are beginning to seriously doubt Micheal's tears after Monza. Italian media has reported it already and many Michael fans think that Michael was acting in order to woo back the fans and win the support of tifosi. Someone wrote(i dont remember where) that sales of Michael Schumacher collection were really bad this year and Michael changed his helmet color to red after pressure from Marlboro. If all this is true than there are strong chances of crocodile tears after the GP.

PS if that was acting than Michael deserves a Golden Globe award.

Red/Al

Like always you dont get the symbolism behind my writings. You've got to make inferences and look deep into every sentence. Only then can you appreciate freud. I have been observing all the drivers extremely closely over the past many years. I have met some of them, read their interviews, taken autographs from them. Last year at Montreal, Jacques saw me standing behind the Williams pits garage at a distance and remembered meeting me during the Hungarian GP 1998. He walked towards me and shook hands with me and asked me what I'm doing. Now these small things do make a difference when one is judging personalities. I have met Giancarlo and he's a lovely guy. Michael is known to be arrogant in the paddock. If you happen to visit the f1 paddock sometimes, just ask the Minardi Mechanics and they'll tell you.

Cheers

[Liz]

Pete, you did jeer at Rubens for crying on the podium. But of course you are permitted to prefer a stiff upper lip and no emotion if you want to. Forgive me if I prefer to see what they honestly feel.

Zonta had points in the first race of the season, and at least one other race.

But I find it hard to care who won the thing when it was bound to be either Ferrari or McLaren and the script said it was going to be Ferrari.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by Liz
Pete, you did jeer at Rubens for crying on the podium. But of course you are permitted to prefer a stiff upper lip and no emotion if you want to. Forgive me if I prefer to see what they honestly feel.

Not jeeering at RB Liz but criticising the predictability of what he did. We all knew he would burst into tears and I still believe he was "wound up" into that condition by the media.

Originally posted by Liz

Zonta had points in the first race of the season, and at least one other race.

Thanks.

Originally posted by Liz


But I find it hard to care who won the thing when it was bound to be either Ferrari or McLaren and the script said it was going to be Ferrari.

Oh please. That's not even on topic.

[Nuvolari]

Restating what I've said before:

Peter, you'll never get it.

[Peter Mallett]

I to have noticed the amount of repetition here Nuvolari. So perhaps we should wait until we can come up with something original?

Otherwise you will keep saying "you don't get it" and I will know that "I get it" quite regularly. "It" is really down to definition.

[Redneck]

Forgive me, I have not read every posting here and I did not see MS cry the other day.

What has surprised me, especially those of you that claim to race, is you seem to put these drivers in another world. No one just came and handed them the keys to an F1 car. They were young aspiring drivers with a dream. I once dreamed of racing F1 bikes. I worked hard and made many sacrifices, but not enough. I eventually gave up. I was no longer willing to forsake all others in an effort to win. These guys did. Some will be critical of this also. Many of them raced for nothing, trying to move up the ladder. They crashed cars, got hurt, and came back to race again. They scraped for money to repair cars, often skipping meals to do it. They missed family get-togethers. They put racing #1 in thier lives. We have not.

Have you critics gotten so callous and out of touch with racing that you forgot what it takes to win? When Rubens won at Hockenhiem, suddenly everything he had devoted his life to had paid off. Few men ever get the chance to sit in an F1 car, much less win. More men have traveled in space than have driven an F1 car. To win in F1 is a very remarkable feat. One that takes more dedication than any of us have. I would imagine that if anyone of you that are critical ever won a Grand Prix you would be mush also.

As for MS crying. I seriously doubt that this was staged. Few people have the ability to generate tears on demand. Those that can are in Hollywood. Few of these guys race for just the money. Sure they want everything they can get and they do. But if they had a choice between making a regular salary like us, or racing cars for a baloney sandwich, I know where they would be. And I know where we are.

In 1988 a friend of mine (Scott) bought a truck and a brand new Suzuki 750. He quit his job and set out to make a living at racing. That same year his closest friend (Paul)had done the same. Paul had a very serious crash at Portland, mangling his legs, never to walk again. But Scott stuck with it. Despite his friend's serious injuries, knowing it could happen to him. He drove all over the USA racing for his next meal. I chose not to take that route. I chose to stay in college (the safe and responsible thing to do). Scott sacrificed everything in his life to race. Today Scott has 5 Daytona 200 victories (more than anyone), 2 AMA Championships, and 1 World Superbike Championship and raced in F1. Those of you that follow motorcycle roadracing know of Scott Russell. That is sacrifice and dedication! That is what will bring tears to your eyes when you win a major race.

[Peter Mallett]

Good points Mr Neck and they counterpoint my posting a few days back. Just proves there're two sides to every story. However the topic was prompted this time by MS (which I didn't witness either) and not RB although inevitably he was brought into the frame.

I don't have a problem with the emotional side of the equation at all (although if you read some people's enterpretations of my posts you'd think I am Hitler, Dracula and the Marquis de Sade all mixed into one).

I just get the impression that the media is concentrating on this rather than the RACING or lack of it anyway.

I am guilty of believing that RB was "wound up" to an extent and because I found the situation predictable I also considered it humourous. However, your point about racers having passion is valid and we all have it to a greater or lesser extent. Its just that we don't go around displying it because we aren't paid to do so.

BTW. Some of those who complain at my apparent lack of feeling are the ones who spent an awful lot of time villifying Hakinen after his tears in the bushes last year. I just see no difference in the three episodes from a "passion" point of view. I also see a similarity in these actions from a media point of view. Don't you?

[angst]

I see your point Peter. Whether or not the tears are contrived/false, or the drivers have been wound up to the state they're in is irrelevant. The fact is it's good PR and diverts attention from the fact that alot of the time the racing itself is dire. If Max really did say that (that people will be interested in the action off the track) then the sooner the likes of Bernie, Ron, Frank et al can find a way of getting his grubby hands off the sport the better. What's worse is WE'RE all discussing it as if it's important, so it's working.
Personally I view the whole thing as contrived and I will probably get an adverse reaction to that, but that's my opinion on the matter.

[Nuvolari]

Redneck's points are well taken. I'm glad you see that, Peter. Certainly reporters can fall into the trap of sensationalizing; but more often than not they are driven by what's unusual about an event, what makes it newsworthy. The race results at Monza were overshadowed by two occurances -- the tragic shunt that took the life of the marshall and the emotion that overwhelmed the post-race proceedings.

I think we've spent far more time dissecting Michael Schumacher's display than any journalist has. By now it's very old news indeed.

[freud]

I was pondering on the fact that when Mika cried last year after Monza the media covered it as if Mika has "choked" and that he lacks guts. Now the same journos are pronouncing Michael as some sort of Saint who was blessed 41 GPs by the Lord and tears flowed naturally from his eyes. I cant understand the sh1t that Mika's tears were those of choking while Michael's tears were of grace.

As Ron Dennis puts it, Michael's tears demonstrated the pressure he's under...the pressure of driving against a driver as strong as Mika.

[Nuvolari]

Well . . . as I recall, sentiment was fairly widespread that Mika was coming apart at the seams, irrespective of how the incident was being played by reporters.

Also, Freud, I think the circumstances differ in that Michael's breakdown came at the end of an emotional win (remember his outpouring of joy in the parc ferme and on the podium) when reminded of the link with Senna. I do agree that Schu's tears, no less than Mika's, reflect the pressures of contending for the WDC.

[Peter Mallett]

Speaking personally it seems to me that to some members of this forum, it is perfectly ok to criticise (even villify) Mika as a failure. But should anyone suggest that RB's reactions were anything but a normal display of emotion and MS's reactions were contrived (I don't know if they were), is tantamount to jeering?

I think we've got our wires crossed here folks.

It is the over concentration of the media on these events which is really the crux of the matter. And it seems we have fallen into their trap.

[freud]

I agree with you, Peter. But dont you think we as humans have become more sensitive to our surroundings? We hate the 'hard' attitude and softy personalities are popular with women & teens. All in all I guess to be a "softy/weak" is 'in' with the times.

Now I sincerely feel that Michael is far more strong in the head than Mika. His sort of 60's crew cut "The man" appereance was like by many of his fans. Watching him cry like a baby must have shattered the image of Michael in their eyes. I for one was a bit disappointed with Michael. I was a closet "appreciator" of his hard 'man-like' attitude that is quite rare in f1 these days. With media looking for praise of softies. May be Michael decided to join the bandwagon.

I imagine the attitude 30 years ago. Jackie stewart said in an interview that "We knew before a race that at least one of us wont be alive after the race." Its hard to imagine such tough times and tough men.

[TimD]

Originally posted by freud


I imagine the attitude 30 years ago. Jackie stewart said in an interview that "We knew before a race that at least one of us wont be alive after the race." Its hard to imagine such tough times and tough men.

Tough times, yes. Infamously, in the first part of 1968, they lost one driver each month.

But tough men? I don't think that the drivers then were any "harder" than now. But the advantage they did have was that the F1 circus allowed them to be friends. They were not required to be heroes or villains, or to fulfil corporate duties over and above all else.

So when the stark side of motor sport reared its head, Jackie would have had Graham, Jimmy, Jochen, and a whole host of other support.

Reading some of the stories of what these guys got up to, they may have been laying themselves open to far more risk on a Sunday afternoon, but they also knew how to live life to the full in the meantime. Some of Graham Hill and Innes Ireland's high jinks have passed into legend!

It's all a question of pressure. If you have a safety valve, it is not going to build to an intolerable level.

I sometimes feel sorry for the lads driving F1 today. They were born 30 years too late for one hell of a party.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by freud
I agree with you, Peter. But dont you think we as humans have become more sensitive to our surroundings? We hate the 'hard' attitude and softy personalities are popular with women & teens. All in all I guess to be a "softy/weak" is 'in' with the times.

I think its more a case of being "conditioned" into this softer attitude. We spend so much time in our professional lives legislating against accidents and making things safer that we forget the reason why we are doing something.

But, yes. It is definitely apparent that unless you display every kind of emotion to the cameras, you will be ignored. Maybe that's why people don't like Eddie Irvine that much?

Hmm. A whole new topic?

Tim,

Good points all. However I don't feel sorry for these guys. Their compensation is mega bucks. And remember it was the drivers which which started demanding the money in the first place.

[TimD]

And that's why I feel sorry for them, Pete. Whenever I listen to Sir Stirling Moss talking about the old times, he always reiterates one thing. He says that if he had driven today, he would be a lot richer financially, but he wouldn't have had nearly as much fun.

After your first five million, just how much more do you need?

[freud]

Tim D

The drivers of today know before a race that deaths on track are a rarity and f1 has become quite safe. Jackie says that the night before every GP he wife shivered with fear about something happening to Jackie. Those guys knew that at every race weekend a driver is going to be killed, yet thay drove flat-out not fearing the deathtrap they were in. Imo it requires tremendous courage and bravery which must be saluted. The f1 cars are still dangerous and casualties can take place but thankfully the situation is not as bad as 35 years ago.


Peter

The "Cute/Softie" mania has arrived!! I believe this has got to do with increased involvement of women in all fields of life. I believe 30-40 years ago there wont be too many women f1 fans. Nowadays sitting at a grandstand, you hear women talking comments like :

Oh, Jenson is so cute, he's gonna be a big star.

or

Fisichella looks great in his new hairstyle.

Michael may have gotten a few women f1 fans in his bags after his display of emotion on TV