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Old 20 Apr 2001, 15:56 (Ref:82738)   #1
hornytoad
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atlasf1.com has a story re these sensors which, if true, will already render ineffective the 'evening the playing field' of re-unoutlawing tc. as the lights cut, these sensors will automatically launch the car. the fia must acquire adequate electronics personnel in order to put a stop to the bending of the rules. although it's justifiable and understandable for the teams to 'work' the rules, f1 is steering towards remote-controlled (i.e., driverless) cars in the not-so-near future. why cannot f1 regulate these electronics? is the fia's history always been to succumb to rules violators when it's easier than fixing the problem? surely, these aids can be detected with better personnel in possession of more sophisticated equipment. but then, i'm speculating. is this a possiblity?
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Old 20 Apr 2001, 16:27 (Ref:82743)   #2
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Originally posted by hornytoad
although it's justifiable and understandable for the teams to 'work' the rules, f1 is steering towards remote-controlled (i.e., driverless) cars in the not-so-near future
Addition of an optical sensor to detect and react to the start lights is not really in the same class. In theory, it is certainly already possible to have a driverless car -- the PC game GP3 is a good example of a sophisticated computer model which could do just that, and it's not even had the resources that Ferrari or McLaren could put into it.

However, getting these things to detect and react to problems - debris on track, other competitors and so on - is where the drivers' skills still beat a machine. But for qualifying, a computer would be better:

One lap of the track at the hands of a driver, at any speed, just picking out the optimum line, and there would not even be a requirement for an on board map of the track: the next lap, and every one after it, the computer would be able to drive the car at optimum speed for that line -- no question.

The good news for F1 fans, however, is that the FIA's move to ban power steering and braking prevents computers being involved in these actions. Optimum acceleration is already available from traction control, so the limits of gain are already defined. Credit to any team who make a launch control work properly, if you ask me, as they are clearly reacting within the limit of the rules...

Just my tuppence worth.
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Old 21 Apr 2001, 20:53 (Ref:83213)   #3
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Now see this is what I don't understand. TC is being legalised because it's becoming "undetectable". Yet they're banning braking and steering aids. If they can't police TC, how are they going to monitor that??

I'm with Valve Bounce on this one. Ban all batteries on cars. Cockpit lights could run of dynamos. Gears would be manual WITH A CLUTCH (skill, do you see??). Bring it back to the old skool daze!!!

BTW: f1rumours, just thought I'd let you know you're newletter is cracking and have been a subscriber for ages. Just a bit of support there for ya!! Everybody: www.f1rumours.com
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Old 22 Apr 2001, 06:41 (Ref:83387)   #4
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i have to agree with tristan. i 2 wanna see more driver skills than super electronics controling cars..thats not racing..i wish i could see 32 cars (16 competitive teams) with no aids or TC. pure driver skills. we wouldnt have to see only 2 or 3 drivers win races all the time.
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Old 22 Apr 2001, 06:59 (Ref:83393)   #5
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surely, these aids can be detected with better personnel in possession of more sophisticated equipment. but then, i'm speculating. is this a possiblity?
Im afraid its very difficult to detect these codes.Even if the fia use th most qualified professionals,the small program can be loaded in the ram of the onboard computer and it will lose the code when the engine is cut.

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i have to agree with tristan. i 2 wanna see more driver skills than super electronics controling cars..thats not racing..i wish i could see 32 cars (16 competitive teams) with no aids or TC. pure driver skills. we wouldnt have to see only 2 or 3 drivers win races all the time.
Thats what we want Dm,but thats not what the consructors want.Half of them wouldnt have been here if f1 didnt provide them a platform to show their technical brilliance.I do however agree taht optical sensors is pushing the limit a bit too far.But such systems are not very predictable.They can easily go wrong and so teh teams will be much better off allowing the driver to make the decision.After all,ify ou have launch control,what else cound you possibly need to make a good start?
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Old 22 Apr 2001, 08:03 (Ref:83404)   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by laxman
Im afraid its very difficult to detect these codes.Even if the fia use th most qualified professionals,the small program can be loaded in the ram of the onboard computer and it will lose the code when the engine is cut.
1. Make the teams use a standardized onboard computer.
2. Design this computer in such a way that it can only run programs in the hardware.
3. Make the teams use a strictly standardized coding method.

You could even enforce a standardized software development environment,
and have the teams hand in the complete project files.
That way the FIA can check whether the software in the PROM (or whatever)
is identical to the generated object code.


Don K.
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Old 22 Apr 2001, 13:39 (Ref:83553)   #7
Tristan
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I see no reason why all batteries (and thus computers) can't be banned.
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Old 23 Apr 2001, 11:04 (Ref:83961)   #8
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Thanks for the plug...

Quote:
Originally posted by Tristan
Yet they're banning braking and steering aids. If they can't police TC, how are they going to monitor that??
Actually, that is quite simple to monitor: if there is no power assistance to the brakes or steering, then only the driver can control it. It's simple enough to check that these devices have no pneumatic assistance. You can put all the electronics you like into monitoring them too -- without a feedback system, it's all just so much extra clutter...

By the way, there are no batteries on board. That's why they use an external starter: the electricity is generated by the engine, and must be permitted to do so whilst F1 depends on four stroke units... how else do the teams generate a spark? And if you have electricity, you can run electronic devices, and so you might as well permit batteries.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tristan
BTW: f1rumours, just thought I'd let you know you're newletter is cracking and have been a subscriber for ages. Just a bit of support there for ya!! Everybody: www.f1rumours.com
Appreciate the plug, Tristan, but the correct url is actually f1rumors.net -- the one you posted goes to Formula1.com, a matter of some distress to us, as they are clearly poaching our viewers. But that's by the by. The newsletter(s) you refer to are a daily news submission and a weekly rumours sheet. Feel free to sign up. Also recommended is 10-Tenths weekly newsletter, which covers far more than F1, and is generally a great read!

Enuff plugs, they don't belong here -- I suggest the moderator moves any offending message components to a more suitable spot!

Just my tuppence worth...
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Old 23 Apr 2001, 11:42 (Ref:83974)   #9
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With the amount of money that is generated by the F1 circus, I just do not believe that policing is a problem. Car manufacturers cannot afford to have their name on a car that is unreliable or can crash - it just isn't good for business. We all saw this last season with Bridgestone at Indiana! Lets take a leaf out of CARTS book - manufacturers supply engines and chassis and let the teams buy whatever combination they like! F1 mustn't let the car industry take control

Bring back clutch and manual gear change. That'll open up the braking zones.
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Old 24 Apr 2001, 00:07 (Ref:84221)   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by F1Rumors
By the way, there are no batteries on board. That's why they use an external starter: the electricity is generated by the engine, and must be permitted to do so whilst F1 depends on four stroke units... how else do the teams generate a spark? And if you have electricity, you can run electronic devices, and so you might as well permit batteries.
Thank you Mr Rumours.

No comeback from the "Ban the Batteries" Squad?

Oh dear...!
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Old 24 Apr 2001, 01:05 (Ref:84238)   #11
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Don K is absolutely right. The FIA not only have the power of controlling the rules, but designing them as well. So there's no excuse of letting stuff get out of hand one way or the other.

But on the other hand Laxman's second point is as valid as well because the manufacturer's interests is exactly what the FIA has been dancing too instead of pursuing some sort of goal of 'supreme racing'. Over the years they kind of sold the soul of autoracing to commerce and the results are obvious and the absolute lack of control and opportunistic singing-along apparent as well.

Power steering and braking is permitted btw. Even next year under the new regulations. The new rules only stipulate that they can't be electronically controlled (which for the matter of brakes was already banned before the 1998 season). So they can use power steering but only mechanically from 2002 onwards. And achieve some by using the misty depths of the diff-rules to their fullest ofcourse.
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Old 24 Apr 2001, 05:34 (Ref:84312)   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sparky


Thank you Mr Rumours.

No comeback from the "Ban the Batteries" Squad?

Oh dear...!
I plead guilty on this one. I assumed that the on board computers required a constant steady voltage supply, so that small rechargeable batteries, such as those on lap tops, were needed to operate the computers.
As such, if the computers can be run directly on the dynamos, then I stand corrected. If not, then ban all batteries is still my plea.
I think the band of anti-on board computers followers is growing by the day here. I had very few responding to my original thread which disappeared after a few days from our BB. Now gradually, more people are sympathetic to our cause.
BTW Sparky, what are your feelings on the development of on board computer aids in F1? Do you think that F1 is heading in the right direction with these electronic aids?
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Old 24 Apr 2001, 05:53 (Ref:84316)   #13
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AS FOR LAUNCH CONTROL AND OTHER ELECTRONIC STUFF

Patrick Head

The WilliamsF1 Technical Director gives an explanation of the new
software changes being introduced in Spain:

"Barcelona sees the new regulations that permit significantly more
management of the engine, gearbox, differential and clutch and
this will permit traction control, which will be conducted by
different teams in different ways. They will be looking to reduce
the power of the engine in response to sensed wheel spin. Some
may be using ignition cutting, some may be using ignition retards,
some may be using throttle closure, there are a number of
different ways, or a combination of ways of achieving an end
result. It would certainly be very significant if the qualifying or
race are wet, or run on a damp track. Probably of less importance
if the race and qualifying are dry, but certainly there will be many
tracks this year where it will be a deciding factor. As far as the
clutch is concerned people will be using automatic starts,
although the trigger for the starts will need to come from the
driver. He will need to respond to the lights going out and give a
command through whatever mechanism to initiate the start. The
diff control is probably not hugely significant, but it gives a little
more freedom to control the differential to assist the handling of
the car. Being able to fully automate the gearbox probably won't
make a great deal of difference, but will just mean that instead of
the driver responding to lights on the dashboard, telling him when
to change gear, it will change up automatically and change down
automatically."

HOWEVER, I DON'T THINK IT WOULD BE THAT DIFFICULT FOR SOME BRIGHT LAD TO COME UP WITH THE DEVICE TO AUTOMATICALLY LAUNCH THE CAR WHEN THE LIGHTS GO OUT. (Sorry for the caps).
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Old 24 Apr 2001, 12:26 (Ref:84396)   #14
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Re: AS FOR LAUNCH CONTROL AND OTHER ELECTRONIC STUFF

i]Originally posted by Valve Bounce [/i]
Patrick Head:
"It would certainly be very significant if the qualifying or race are wet, or run on a damp track."


Interesting sentence when you stop to think about it. With the TC System in control of the throttle and the gear box in the wet, it seems to me we have the potential for some real conflicts between car and driver. Surely there must be some way for the drivers to override the TC.
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Old 24 Apr 2001, 17:11 (Ref:84480)   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Valve Bounce
BTW Sparky, what are your feelings on the development of on board computer aids in F1? Do you think that F1 is heading in the right direction with these electronic aids?
I think itís a shame that the FIA decided they couldnít adequately police TC.
I have no problem with Formula One representing the pinnacle of technology in racing. There are a million other formulae that cater to spectators wishing to watch a battle of Ďdriver skillí only. (Any of the one-make series, the Formula Palmer-Audi, any of the Formula Ford/Vauxhall/Holden/Renault series etc. Any one of those will provide a level playing field, and hopefully be a test of driver capabilities alone.)

But this isnít why I watch Formula One. Grand Prix Racing, to me at least, has always been about a team (any team) being able to bring the best combination of engine, chassis, tyres and driver together every other weekend, so the rest of us can watch in open-mouth amazement as they battle against all odds for two hours.
To say that the technology is so effective, that any driver could do the job is stretching things too, Iím afraid. Iím sure it is easier than the Ďgolden daysí but the FIA have tried (some might say successfully) to significantly reduce the hazards involved in all racing, but specifically Formula One.

The drivers currently signed to todays F1 teams are not there because they secretly hope the FIA will return to pre-í79 ideas on the car specification. They are in it for the thrill of speed, the financial reward, the notoriety. Iím sure there are many things they would like to change, but you donít see them flocking to other series so that they can have a ďTrue test of driver skillĒ, do you? Can you imagine any of the top ten drivers migrating to Formula Ford because the racing was closer? I canít either.

That isnít to say that I would like to watch Schumacher or Frentzen driving cars with TC, ABS, Power steering and so on, but you can limit the use of these systems without going to the lengths of suggesting that EVERY control unit in the car be outlawed. The sport you would be left with would bear NO resemblance to the one you currently watch.

F1 has evolved. As long as Iíve been a fan, and for many years before that, regulations were changed and technology came along that have changed the face of Grand Prix racing for ever. Electronics are a feature of today. Almost every single electrical product sold today has a mass of electronics stuffed inside. It IS possible to run a grand Prix car with magneto ignition, a bank of twin carburettors, zero sensors and hooked up to mechanical linkages, but that isnít how the car of today operates. If you forced these components on todays Formula One cars, theyíd be historic Formula One cars, and you can already go see these if you would prefer. I enjoy listening to 20,000 rpm rather than a mechanical limit of 10,000 rpm.
I prefer to see a sport that is continually evolving, and the lengths the teams will go to, to try and gain the upper edge. IF a particular team was cheating on the TC issue, that could/should have been investigated fully, not given in to.

I realise that this isnít the popular view, but at least it is realistic.
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