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Old 18 Nov 2010, 18:50 (Ref:2792775)   #1
Sodemo
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Todt: "new tracks must create passing"

There is a news story over on autosport where Todt says that, well, quite simply, "tracks must create passing".

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88389

They mention the Abu Dhabi track, which I think for a new venue offers perhaps the worst track layout of the season.

Since I had a few minutes to spare, I made a couple of edits to the Yas Marina track to A, actually improve the layout so it flows, creates passing and made sure to ensure there is adequate run off.

Bringing the top hairpin closer to the main straight means that they can bypass that stupid chicane and also means they will have an approach speed of about 180mph down to what I guess is about 60-70mph. Bigger braking zone, better chance of passing into the corner, give the hairpin an ambiguous apex, adding a bit of camber gives it a variety of lines, and a variety of accelleration points. This is the problem with a conventional hairpin, the guy behind is always later getting on the throttle, making this corner faster and a different profile lets drivers have more things to try.

Second, bypass the chicane to produce a long flat out section.

Third, produced another hairpin which should invite passing, have the corner cambered, *think the Dunlop Kehre* at Nurburgring GP. Fast 200mph+ approach into a 80-90mph open hairpin.

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Old 18 Nov 2010, 20:02 (Ref:2792802)   #2
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There's no way you could have a long run that fast, nor would it induce any more overtaking - the straight's too long as it is, due to the rev limit

It's more than just the layout that's the problem at Abu Dhabi. It's too smooth and too wide
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Old 18 Nov 2010, 20:11 (Ref:2792808)   #3
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Dear Ten-Tenths staff, track design includes many forms of motorsport, not just F1, and currently there isn't a proper place to carry discussions like this one (FIA bashing, manufacturer involvement in world championships, safety, etc).
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Old 18 Nov 2010, 20:38 (Ref:2792819)   #4
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Dear Ten-Tenths staff, track design includes many forms of motorsport, not just F1, and currently there isn't a proper place to carry discussions like this one (FIA bashing, manufacturer involvement in world championships, safety, etc).
The My tracks forum regularly hosts discussion on real tracks as well as those created by Tenthers. Indeed it's a place to post your edits of real tracks for constructive criticism as well.
You can find us Here.

There has been posts regarding possible alterations to Abu Dhabi as recent as this week down there as well.
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Old 18 Nov 2010, 21:16 (Ref:2792844)   #5
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There's no way you could have a long run that fast, nor would it induce any more overtaking - the straight's too long as it is, due to the rev limit

It's more than just the layout that's the problem at Abu Dhabi. It's too smooth and too wide
Umm its called a gearbox and has things called ratios that can be changed.

A longer straight would make the speed differential between the straight and the corners higher and would force set up compromises between cornering downforce and straight line speed which would be good.

The real point that is being missed is its not the tracks, but the CARS that are incapable of racing one another.
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Old 19 Nov 2010, 23:18 (Ref:2793283)   #6
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NO NO NOOOOOO!!!!

I've heard this remark from Jean Todt and held my head in hands!

You must design the cars for the circuits, not the circuits for the cars!

I really hope we get back to proper racing soon. This year's championship was as dull as ever, and we were supposed to be excited by staring at the drivers standings and admiring how close the top 4 were.
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Old 19 Nov 2010, 23:28 (Ref:2793285)   #7
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The so called big front wing idea and narrow rear wing has not worked. I do not think the return to a single deck diffuser will many any difference at all.
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Old 19 Nov 2010, 23:33 (Ref:2793290)   #8
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When the aero rules are next looked at, I think the possibility of re-introducing some form of ground effects - think first generation GP2 car, not Lotus 79 - should be reconsidered, as should tilting the balance more towards mechanical grip (larger rear wheels and tyres, perhaps). KERS could be a quick fix solution, but it would be less effective if everyone has it. One thought about cars hitting the rev limiter would be to mandate a specific final drive and seventh gear ratio so that they aren't bouncing on the limiter for the last third of the straight.

Part of the problem is that the quality of the circuits has decreased recently, in addition the season was bookended by two of the worst circuits on the calendar. Tilke's circuits generally have one or two good features (I think I'm the only person that likes the opening complex at China), but some factors that negate that. Big stops are useful for creating overtaking, but a break (pardon the pun) from hairpin-long straight-hairpin pattern would be helpful, something like 300R at Fuji was - chicane-opening corner-long straight-big stop.

Last edited by duke_toaster; 19 Nov 2010 at 23:40.
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Old 20 Nov 2010, 00:06 (Ref:2793298)   #9
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Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice View Post
I've heard this remark from Jean Todt and held my head in hands!

You must design the cars for the circuits, not the circuits for the cars!

I really hope we get back to proper racing soon. This year's championship was as dull as ever, and we were supposed to be excited by staring at the drivers standings and admiring how close the top 4 were.
Your italics should be put on a brass plaque and hung in Mr. Todt's office.
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Old 20 Nov 2010, 01:22 (Ref:2793319)   #10
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I wonder what Todt will do when his changes utterly fail to deliver results.

I suppose you might be able to pass that off as not being a "straight", Sodemo, but I wouldn't bet on getting that massive flat-out run approved. Straights are capped at 2000m for new circuits in the FIA regulations, and really, you don't see any new ones with straights of more than 1200m.
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Old 20 Nov 2010, 11:54 (Ref:2793406)   #11
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Originally Posted by duke_toaster View Post
When the aero rules are next looked at, I think the possibility of re-introducing some form of ground effects - think first generation GP2 car, not Lotus 79 - should be reconsidered, as should tilting the balance more towards mechanical grip (larger rear wheels and tyres, perhaps). KERS could be a quick fix solution, but it would be less effective if everyone has it. One thought about cars hitting the rev limiter would be to mandate a specific final drive and seventh gear ratio so that they aren't bouncing on the limiter for the last third of the straight.

Part of the problem is that the quality of the circuits has decreased recently, in addition the season was bookended by two of the worst circuits on the calendar. Tilke's circuits generally have one or two good features (I think I'm the only person that likes the opening complex at China), but some factors that negate that. Big stops are useful for creating overtaking, but a break (pardon the pun) from hairpin-long straight-hairpin pattern would be helpful, something like 300R at Fuji was - chicane-opening corner-long straight-big stop.
Ground effects are exactly what is being planned for the 2013 F1 rules.
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Old 20 Nov 2010, 23:05 (Ref:2793632)   #12
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We need to move away from this Tilke guy. Get ambitious young track designers with imagination. What design skill Tilke had he's lost. He's built a few duds in recent years. No more of him please.

Build 'em like Road America but a bit wider for the F1 cars.

The aeros on the cars are a complete joke too. They had a great build up promising us the world with these new rules and what do they give us? 24 of these ugly scaffoldings on wheels. They then spend time scratching their heads wondering why there is no passing.

Go back to the spirit of the early 90's with the aerodynamics. Cars looked stunning then too. There was only processions back then because of huge gaps in technology (active suspension..etc) but when evenly matched the aero aspects allowed passing. Now it's the exact opposite.

Make the cars look beautiful and make the aeros sensible. I can imagine the sceptical grimaces of the designers but if I've always felt that if you make the cars look beautiful the passing will naturally come too.

Last edited by Paradise City; 20 Nov 2010 at 23:13.
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Old 21 Nov 2010, 07:34 (Ref:2793722)   #13
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I've always felt that if you make the cars look beautiful the passing will naturally come too.
Isn't that like saying a beautiful woman will naturally have personality??
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Old 21 Nov 2010, 16:00 (Ref:2793860)   #14
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I wonder what Todt will do when his changes utterly fail to deliver results.

I suppose you might be able to pass that off as not being a "straight", Sodemo, but I wouldn't bet on getting that massive flat-out run approved. Straights are capped at 2000m for new circuits in the FIA regulations, and really, you don't see any new ones with straights of more than 1200m.
I wasn't aware that there was a set limit for straights in FIA guidelines.

However in the rough adjustments I have submitted in the first post, I think the run from that hairpin to the more open hairpin is perhaps a touch longer than the run from La Source to Les Combes, or maybe Stavelot to the Bus Stop. The common trait between Les Combes and Bus Stop? We always see passing there. The same could be said of the first corner at Indy - a medium speed corner which is followed by what is essentially a long straight with a tight corner at the end, which means losing 150mph+ in a braking zone. The run from Bassa into Tosa was a similar setup at the old Imola, two long straights with a tight corner at the end. The Mark Webber Safety brigade might say well you can't have that speed of corner in F1 now (the flat out one I penned above), but it wasn't a problem when at Indy, or The Tunnel at Monaco, or the final corner(s) at Interlagos, or turn 4 of Montreal, all of which have no run off and are 150mph+ corners.

The cars are however the main problem. If 2013 actually brings some aero rules of benefit I will be very surprised, as so far none of the technical regulation revisions have done much for the racing. If they actually wanted to do some good things like wider slicks, wider cars, drastically reduce the size of the front wing (which seems now to be the new home for all the previously banned winglets) and do some kind of underbody aero type scenario, then twin that with a few track changes, they might be on to something.

Last edited by Sodemo; 21 Nov 2010 at 16:06.
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Old 21 Nov 2010, 16:12 (Ref:2793863)   #15
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Well there were a couple of ex world champions at Brands this week and were heard to comment that the problem with the recent circuits is that they are designed by the same people, when pushed about the final grand prix, the general consensus was that it was a typical go kart circuit.
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