Club F3

JohnMiller · 16 Jan 2006, 09:46 (Ref:1502201)

Interested on any thoughts on this new Championship, which has replaced the now-defunct ARP F3?

Bob Pearson · 16 Jan 2006, 10:09 (Ref:1502217)

I've always had a desire to be in this championship, I think it has the basic requirements to be the top club single seater formula. But I would need to be convinced that the changes being made will take away all that has appeared to be bad in it for the last few years. Can anyone tell me how the changes will achieve this.

Cleggie · 16 Jan 2006, 12:02 (Ref:1502316)

The new Club F3 Championship has no connection with ARP, it would be going over old ground to tell you what was so poor about ARP, suffice to say that it was poorley managed and offered little value for money. It is quite alarming that they managed to do such a bad job for so long, especially when it was so easy to to so much better.

The ARP management continually refused to listen both to reasoned advise and competitor's worries. They acted in a high-handed and unreasonable manner and have paid the price in having thier ball and bat taken from them, ARP-RIP! Can't say we didn't warn you!

Club F3 seems to have started on the right track. Check out thier web site: www.clubf3.co.uk. It looks like a properly organised championship, run on a commercail basis. Just what is needed for a series of the best single seatcars availalble to the club racer. Good luck to them, I'll be competing in it this year.

Larry J-Croft · 16 Jan 2006, 13:21 (Ref:1502347)

I spoke to to the new manager Kevin Shortis of BRSCC on Saturday at the Autosport show, he seemed very honest and motivated to focus on the drivers needs. I have no first hand knowledge of ARP (although you do hear the odd story in the paddock) so I am looking at the series as a possible fresh entrant. I particularly like the television deal they have got - 6 rounds on Channel 5 (albeit late at night) and Motors TV. The only way I could do the series is with some sponsorship and the TV deal may at last tip the balance in making it worthwhile for a self financing club racer to move up a level.

The class structure looks sensible, a break at end of 96 for classes A and B both with 26mm restrictors but some weight differences. Master class for the older cars is partly competitors choice depending on what restrictor you want to use. Avon control slicks - only problem is that from the regs it is not clear whether they are radials of crossplys - will make a great difference to my set up - anyone else know the answer?

Now all I need is that sponsor!!!

Flat Out Farr · 16 Jan 2006, 18:04 (Ref:1502552)

Good Luck with this season Larry. Hope you get the sponsorship to move up a league!

Larry J-Croft · 16 Jan 2006, 19:51 (Ref:1502610)

Thanks for that young flat out - tyres are crossplys by the way - I rang up BMTR. Right where's that begging bowl!!

tux · 16 Jan 2006, 21:25 (Ref:1502683)

no offence to arp i enjoyed watching the f3 cars but it was utter rubish at the end of the season at castle combe there was only a handful of cars then when they get to the start a driver spins off brings out the red flag because he stalled it after the spin then he drives the wrong way round the track to get back to pole then another guy spun on the second start and stalled it then on the third start they did 1 lap then got called of because the conditions were to dangerous

Larry J-Croft · 16 Jan 2006, 22:29 (Ref:1502715)

Can't have been that dangerous as us poor saps in the mono race then went out and had a really good time.

tux · 16 Jan 2006, 23:22 (Ref:1502744)

lol yeah the mono guys were ace especially that guy who was sideways through camp

PaulSands · 17 Jan 2006, 06:19 (Ref:1502850)

they were great at Mallory Park

Redracer77 · 17 Jan 2006, 11:27 (Ref:1503007)

sorry to go off thread a little but what would the difference be to the handling between radials and crossplys?

Bob Pearson · 17 Jan 2006, 11:51 (Ref:1503020)

Are the tyres the same as those run in current F3, it would make sense for it to be the case, so helping the more cash strapped runners with a supply of part used.

Redracer77 · 17 Jan 2006, 12:05 (Ref:1503025)

If they are crossplys then no as current f3 use radials

Larry J-Croft · 17 Jan 2006, 13:15 (Ref:1503068)

When I spoke to BMTR I asked why ARP/Club F3 was different to the national series and the answer was to do with the older cars not being able to run radials - can't say I fully understood it. Crossplys have much stiffer sidewalls and totaly different construction so run much less camber and will behave quite differently to radials. However, I assume from looking at ARP lap times that the later cars designed to run on radials can be made to work on crossplys. Seems a shame really as you can pick up good used radials for a tenner each. The Avon crossplys cost £627 for a set of 4, so for the cost of one set of new crossplys I could do fifteen races with scrubbed radials and replace them every meeting!!!!!!!

gixxer · 17 Jan 2006, 13:31 (Ref:1503078)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry J-Croft

Can't have been that dangerous as us poor saps in the mono race then went out and had a really good time.

Yes we enjoyed the race to!

I knew one of the guy's who used to be involved in running the ARP chanpionship in the early day's when it was a quality championship with good entrys,but the rules kept being changed which always seem to add more costs on the driver which was a shame!

Looking at the Club F3 on paper things look good with the right approach keeping the costs down with minor mod's to be able to race,but as always its the cars on the grid that count i don't want to watch another small field of F3 cars,wether this new championship can muster the interest remains to be seen all the right elements are there its just down to the drivers to support the organisers efforts in trying to make this a worthwhile championship not only for the drivers taking part,but also for us spectators...so the best of luck to you

Redracer77 · 17 Jan 2006, 13:42 (Ref:1503089)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry J-Croft

When I spoke to BMTR I asked why ARP/Club F3 was different to the national series and the answer was to do with the older cars not being able to run radials - can't say I fully understood it. Crossplys have much stiffer sidewalls and totaly different construction so run much less camber and will behave quite differently to radials. However, I assume from looking at ARP lap times that the later cars designed to run on radials can be made to work on crossplys. Seems a shame really as you can pick up good used radials for a tenner each. The Avon crossplys cost £627 for a set of 4, so for the cost of one set of new crossplys I could do fifteen races with scrubbed radials and replace them every meeting!!!!!!!

True my F4 uses F3 rubber and I have a deal with Hitech F3 for £40 a set and most sets only have about 50 miles on them so not much.

But if BMTR are a sponsor of the championship then the last thing they want is drivers buying cheap tyres from F3 teams!!!

Bob Pearson · 17 Jan 2006, 13:49 (Ref:1503094)

Is BMTR a sponsor?

Cleggie · 17 Jan 2006, 14:35 (Ref:1503112)

The tyres that ClubF3 (and ARP before it) are Avon crossplies, supplied by BMTR. It's a fair comment that, instead, a driver could use the radials that British F3 use, and he could use lots of second hand sets that he bought off the British F3 teams and reduce the costs considerably.

But why would anyone want to do that!

If the rules were changed so that radials could be used then BMTR and AVON wouldn't bother supporting the Championship, so there would be no trackside fitting service on racedays.

A set of Avon crosspiles is £606 fitted. If I remember correctly this is about £150-£200 more than a set of Formula Ford 1600 tyres. While I agree they are expensive, they're really not much more than a FF1600 set. When you think about the significant step up form Formula Ford to F3 and the quality and development of the current 1999-2004 F3 cars eligible for ClubF3 this isn't really much more (Don't misunderstand me, I used to race FF1600 and they are the next best thing to F3).

Also, after you've got yourself into an F3 (which won't cost you much more than a very good FF1600, and think of all that carbon fibre and aero development on the chassis your getting at a knock down price), why would you want to compromise your race by fitting a second-hand set of tyres that will destroy your lap time. You can bet your life that the drivers that want to get pole and win will have a nice set of brand new tyres on whatever the cost and I bet a set of Avon radials will be much more than the current crossplies.

If you want a bit more info on Club F3, give one of the Managers a call, you can get thier numbers off the website: www.clubf3.co.uk.

I raced for 4 years in ARP and it's organisation was often a farce. It suffered from an inability to project itself at the same time as marginalising many drivers. The drivers simply started to walk away. APR deserved to lose its right to run a Championship.

Club F3 will, I'm sure, show none of these traits. It appears to be well thought out, approached in a professional manner and popular with the clubman F3 people that I've spoken to. I hope they do well.

Redracer77 · 17 Jan 2006, 14:53 (Ref:1503118)

cleggie a new set of radials are £60 a set cheaper than the crossplys!!

Bob Pearson · 17 Jan 2006, 15:32 (Ref:1503143)

In reality only a small percentage of any field start the day beleiving they could win a race. For someone who is never higher then midfield to convince himself otherwise would be foolish in the extreme. These people know they need much more then a set of new tyres to bridge the gap and so are not particularily interested in spending the £600 per race which serious contebders do. When you add to this the fact that any grid has a proportion of drivers who only just afforded to be there it becomes obvious that by allowing access to part used tyre stocks your grid sizes will swell.
If your race only caters for those who have the skill or the money to win you will always struggle

Larry J-Croft · 17 Jan 2006, 16:02 (Ref:1503167)

Cleggie,

I have a tad of trouble with the idea that losing a trackside race fitting service is worth the extra cost to competitors. Personally I use secondhand F3 tyres for my TOMs in mono and I always come to a meeting with two sets on rims as do most people. The only time I have needed a trackside service was when a valve failed and the nice Yokohama people fixed it 'cos the Avon guys wouldn't.

I am also not convinced that there is much difference between brand new tyres and a scrubbed set. Avon will tell you that the tyres performance plateaus very quickly. Also the Club F3 rules will only allow one new set per weekend, including double headers so at least one practice/race per weekend will be on 'secondhand' tyres anyway.

Go-Pakistan · 17 Jan 2006, 16:18 (Ref:1503184)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cleggie

Also, after you've got yourself into an F3 (which won't cost you much more than a very good FF1600, and think of all that carbon fibre and aero development on the chassis your getting at a knock down price), why would you want to compromise your race by fitting a second-hand set of tyres that will destroy your lap time. You can bet your life that the drivers that want to get pole and win will have a nice set of brand new tyres on whatever the cost and I bet a set of Avon radials will be much more than the current crossplies.

i guess the front runners will be selling scrubbed / second hand sets of tyres to anyone who wants them anyway....so there will still be cheap(er) tyres available once the season gets underway, although people will have to still buy a new first/ second set.

How much is a class A F3 car going for these days. These cars have a market in Asian F3 where the championship class cars are 2001 and up i believe. (also spanish f3?)

Redracer77 · 17 Jan 2006, 16:35 (Ref:1503195)

I am sure Cleggie knows the costs involved.

I would guess a top class car with engine to be between £25 & £40k with a master class car from £8,000 to £16,000

JohnMiller · 17 Jan 2006, 19:56 (Ref:1503332)

Avon assure me that I am right in thinking that a crossply will reduce it's contact patch gradually as cornering forces increase resulting in an equally gradual reduction in grip whereas, with a radial, the tyre will deform so as to maintain maximum grip but will then eventually let go very suddenly when the maximum acceptable forces are reached resulting in accidents.

I must also say that it also caused great mirth when suggested that you could run a Van Diemen spaceframe car on F3 radials and generate any heat in them at all!

REALIST · 17 Jan 2006, 20:22 (Ref:1503347)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

Avon assure me that I am right in thinking that a crossply will reduce it's contact patch gradually as cornering forces increase resulting in an equally gradual reduction in grip whereas, with a radial, the tyre will deform so as to maintain maximum grip but will then eventually let go very suddenly when the maximum acceptable forces are reached resulting in accidents.

I must also say that it also caused great mirth when suggested that you could run a Van Diemen spaceframe car on F3 radials and generate any heat in them at all!

Bit of an overstatement. Because of the construction, x-plies are much more progressive and a radial will ultimately break away less predictably but to say that would result in accidents is a bit much.

Truth is that most decent racers can get to 'grips' (sorry) with radials and, once they have, x-plies seem very easy to find the limit with. Just as we all found 30 years or more ago with road cars.

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