Brabham BT 2

[Chris Townsend]

The Gelb car:
The plate reads BRABHAM, Racing Development Ltd, Surrey, England, FJ.1.62
Car was purchased in autumn 1965 from David Pabst, brother of Augie Pabst both of whom had raced it earlier that year.
The car was said to have come from Briggs Cunningham in 1964 or early 65.
Gelb sold it late 1968 [the car is for sale in Autoweek in Nov 68] though he hasn't yet answered my question about who the buyer was.
He then went out and bought a new Chevron FB which he crashed at Mosport in 69. After that he quit and concentrated on business, eventually becoming a VP at Harley Davidson.

Am getting all the documents scanned and sent to me on CD and will post a selection once they are with me.

Chris

[allenbrown]

So that would be the Dick Thompson car at Sebring 23 March 1962 presumably. Same car raced by Augie Pabst at Watkins Glen that October.

[Marcus Mussa]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

So that would be the Dick Thompson car at Sebring 23 March 1962 presumably. Same car raced by Augie Pabst at Watkins Glen that October.

And now being restored by Wayne Mitchell?
Marcus

[Chris Townsend]

I missed Richard's citing of Duncan R's records, suggesting that there was indeed an FJ.1.62 and that it went to Cunningham.

I have a picture of the car from the rear in reasonable close up, on its trailer, which might allow an expert to assess whether the rocker modification had been made to the rear suspension. It's a bit dark around the shock absorber top mount but there might be something there. All I need is Wayne to get in touch...
Coming on the CD from Wisconsin is copies of all Tom Gelb's correspondence with Brabham about the car, including details of set up and the modifications that he made. That may tell us more.

Chris

[Wayne Mitchell]

Chris et all:
I am anxiously awaiting the info from Tom Gelb to see if we can verify the details of that car with the one I have. Thanks to everyone for keeping up the search for more information. My car has rear " Rockers" to raise and lower the upper end of the shocks. It also has 4 2" dash board holes plus the Smiths tach hole. All this in an integral metal dash which is original according to the welds.
Cheers to all who are just trying to get the facts.
Wayne Mitchell

[Bryan Miller]

That makes perfect sense , back on post # 23 here , I was suggesting we may have one too many entities in 1962 in the USA given the info. we were trying to work from.

The words on the chassis plate are identical to FJ-8-62.

[Marcus Mussa]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

Coming on the CD from Wisconsin is copies of all Tom Gelb's correspondence with Brabham about the car, including details of set up and the modifications that he made. That may tell us more.

Chris

Did you ever receive the CD?
All the best
Marcus

[Chris Townsend]

Marcus

Yes I did, with a huge amount of material, which I am unsure how to post.
Maybe we should think about doing for BT2s what the Hon AF has done for later Brabhams on ORC. [Allen what do you think?]
I've been slowly working through this stuff, but have had heavy work commitments last couple of months.

Chris

[allenbrown]

All yours Chris. I've set it up at http://www.oldracingcars.info/marques/brabham/bt2/ and set up some dummy text as a guide.

If you can't remember how to log in, drop me an email. I'm happy to add in any pictures for you as it's a bit tricky.

Allen

[edholly]

Just noticed a BT2 project for sale at:-

http://www.fastroadandtrack.co.uk/fr....php?adid=6050

Are there any BT2's left of unkown whereabouts ?

Ed

[allenbrown]

The advert doesn't seem to claim that it is a genuine original BT2. It says the frame is original but says it's history isn't known. Unless the owner could come up with more, this would have to be regarded as a continuation car.

[Simon Hadfield]

Its not a BT2, never was and never will be!

[Marcus Mussa]

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

Its not a BT2, never was and never will be!

It's a complete sham!
Marcus

[hamsterace]

I wonder if I could offer a response to the comments made on this forum by Simon Hadfield and Marcus Mussa concerning the Brabham BT2 project which I have for sale?

Firstly, and as alluded to by the rather more considered opinion of Allen Brown, I am not claiming anything about this car – other than that it is an original Brabham frame, together with sufficient original and reproduction parts to construct a rolling chassis with gearbox. It has no traceable history, no chassis number and no frame number. I am not suggesting that anyone could lay claim to an FJ-….-62 identity, and no such implication was made in the advertisement. Again, Allen is correct in stating that unless substantial new evidence came to light – which is frankly unlikely given the passage of time – it would have to be regarded as a continuation car.

Secondly, I find it surprising that Messrs Hadfield and Mussa feel qualified to comment on the project without viewing it or at the very least contacting me for some further information. Simon/ Marcus – you would be welcome to call in any time to view the chassis, and I would be interested to hear your thoughts about it.

Finally, and being the owner of another BT2 referred to elsewhere in this thread, I have no wish to muddy the waters of BT2 histories yet further. It seems to me that there are enough qualifications and suppositions relating to individual chassis to last a life time – in many cases put forward by those who have considerably more to gain out of this situation than I do. I am not a car dealer, restorer or motoring historian. I am – heaven forbid - an enthusiast who is a keen supporter of the Formula Junior movement in general, and the Brabham marque in particular.

Simon Ham

[allenbrown]

Welcome Simon. I hope this won't be your only post here - there are many mysteries to be solved.

[Simon Hadfield]

Having seen the photos on the other advert my opinion is considered and I stand by my comments.

[Denis Lupton]

I, for one ,would be interested in seeing the other ad. photos that Simon Hadfield mentions.
Denis

[edholly]

I apologise if this is considered off the BT2 topic, but I think it is important for some of us to understand what the terminology is here.

I note a couple of references to "continuation chassis"

Could someone define what this would be, and would it have any rights of its own ?

Also I have seen reference to an "ACP chassis" Does anyone know what this stands for ?

[Marcus Mussa]

Originally Posted by edholly

I apologise if this is considered off the BT2 topic, but I think it is important for some of us to understand what the terminology is here.

I note a couple of references to "continuation chassis"

Could someone define what this would be, and would it have any rights of its own ?

Also I have seen reference to an "ACP chassis" Does anyone know what this stands for ?

In my opinion the only person who can produce a “continuation chassis” is the original builder or designer (like say Lola now with the T70). In the case of Brabham, as the marque does not exist any longer, I would think this can only be Ron Tauranac. So if Ron Tauranac produces a replica BT2 chassis then he can advertise it as a “continuation chassis”. If anybody else does it (without the approval of RT) then I feel it should be treated in the same was as a fake Louis Vuitton handbag or Rolex watch, and be steam-rollered! In fact I am amazed that the FIA ever came up with the idea of allowing “replicas” to be given FIA papers – what right have they to make such a decision? They are encouraging people to do something illegal! Incidentally I have raised this question with our “local” delegate and he just said it wasn’t the FIA’s problem!

The other solution would be for somebody who already owns a BT2 to buy this chassis and keep it as a spare – if the original chassis is destroyed it could be another way of “repairing” it.

All the best
Marcus

[Phil West]

High, Phil West here. I just found the sight. Not too big on computers.

Wow, some of you blokes really know your stuff.
I know a bit about FJ 3 62. I bought it from Geof McClelland in 66. The car was pretty good, but we had to build a new engine for her. We used a Cosworth A6 cam, but all the manifolds, & cylinder head work was ours.

I finished every race I started in her, & set lap records every where we raced, except Calder, where it was wet.
I think all those records still stood when they stopped offering classes for them. I wonder if any of the historic boys have gone faster.

Geof had developed the car some what, & we went quite a bit further. By the time we had finished, she was a really quick, & completely reliable car, & very succesful.

Some highlights were,
3Rd outright 67 Bathurst 100.
2Nd outright 67 NSW Formula 1.5 championships.
3Rd outright 67 Victioian Formula 1.5 championships
There were no Formula 2 championships, something about encouraging us to move up to higher classes. It would have helped to have something to crow about, like an F2 championship, when looking for sponsors.

With your knowledge, perhaps you could tell me if the old girl is still around.

Phil West

[allenbrown]

Welcome Phil. According to David McKinney's earlier post, it's now with now Graeme Brown in Queensland.

[piglos]

Originally Posted by Phil West

Some highlights were,
3Rd outright 67 Bathurst 100.

Phil West

Welcome Phil.

Very impressive effort to get an 1100 up to 3rd outright there. Unfortunate that it wasn't a Gold Star round that year, but it was the next when you went a couple of spots better in your 2.5 litre Gold Star debut.

You happen to be the subject of my favourite motor racing photo:
http://www.autopics.com.au/cache/ite....html?cache=no



The 2.5L CAMS Gold Star Series 1964-70

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

Marcus

Yes I did, with a huge amount of material, which I am unsure how to post.
Maybe we should think about doing for BT2s what the Hon AF has done for later Brabhams on ORC. [Allen what do you think?]
I've been slowly working through this stuff, but have had heavy work commitments last couple of months.

Chris

I've brought that page up to date: http://www.oldracingcars.info/marques/brabham/bt2/

Andrew and Chris have logins to alter that page if they wish. I've assigned it to Chris so it says at the bottom it was last updated by Chris - it wasn't, it was me this time.

Allen

[Denis Lupton]

Alan
Some history of FJ-3-62 follows-
1962 Works car for Gavin Youl (built at MRD by Frank Gardner)
1963 to Geoff McLelland NSW
1966 December ( Log Book dated 20/1/67) to Phil West NSW
Many successes mainly in NSW
1968 to Mike Barker (bought 22/3/67) Ringwood,Vic. Raced regularly in
Victoria with some success
1970 to Peter Roach , Vic ,again, used regularly.
1972 to Doug Hicks Vic, fitted with Toyota Corolla engine,as Aust.F3
changed to under 1300cc,and raced consistently by Doug,also by
Peter Jones, when Doug was unavailable.
1974 to Alan Smith, Tasmania, to be driven by Geoff Bantick,very
successful in Tasmania.
1993 In November, Denis Lupton purchased the car, for Jim Russell of
Victoria. The car was shipped back to Victoria by Brambles,arriving
21/1/94, and a full restoration commenced,
to restore the car back to original FJ configuration.
1995 To Nick MacDonald, who completed a great restoration,and
raced the car in Historic Formula Junior most successfully,
achieving many race wins and lap records.
2003 to Graham Brown, Queensland, who has maintained the car
in immaculate condition,and competes regularly all over
Australia. Graham still has the car, in 2008.
Alan, I have many photos and race records of FJ-3-62,
throughout it's life, let me know if you would like any.
Denis

[Denis Lupton]

Alan
Some history of FJ-3-62 follows-
1962 Works car for Gavin Youl (built at MRD by Frank Gardner)
1963 to Geoff McLelland NSW
1966 December ( Log Book dated 20/1/67) to Phil West NSW
Many successes mainly in NSW
1968 to Mike Barker (bought 22/3/67) Ringwood,Vic. Raced regularly in
Victoria with some success
1970 to Peter Roach , Vic ,again, used regularly.
1972 to Doug Hicks Vic, fitted with Toyota Corolla engine,as Aust.F3
changed to under 1300cc,and raced consistently by Doug,also by
Peter Jones, when Doug was unavailable.
1974 to Alan Smith, Tasmania, to be driven by Geoff Bantick,very
successful in Tasmania.
1993 In November, Denis Lupton purchased the car, for Jim Russell of
Victoria. The car was shipped back to Victoria by Brambles,arriving
21/1/94, and a full restoration commenced,
to restore the car back to original FJ configuration.
1995 To Nick MacDonald, who completed a great restoration,and
raced the car in Historic Formula Junior most successfully,
achieving many race wins and lap records.
2003 to Graham Brown, Queensland, who has maintained the car
in immaculate condition,and competes regularly all over
Australia. Graham still has the car, in 2008.
Alan, I have many photos and race records of FJ-3-62,
throughout it's life, let me know if you would like any.
Denis