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Old 10 Jan 2018, 11:57 (Ref:3791718)   #61
chernaudi
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Biggest problem is that the rules between GTE and GT3 in detail are divergent enough that the only car that I know of that can be converted directly from one spec to another is the 488. And it's reportedly actually cheaper to buy the GT3 and the GTE conversion kit than the ready built GTE car.

Also, GTE is biased (supposedly) towards factory teams. GT3 is supposed to be customer based. However, several times, especially on the GT3 side, the line does get blurred due to the mount of support that the car makers throw toward favored teams.

What I'm actually interested in is how much the average GTE and average GT3 car cost, and how much per mile/kilometer they cost to operate and run. And how much in terms of personnel on the team does it take to run a car as well.

But at the end of the day, GT3 has proven to be a profit center (thus far) for car makers who run customer based programs. GTE hasn't been that way since the GT2 days. As long as there's willing customers willing to pay what the market will bear and setting that statute, GT3 will be OK as a formula.

As far as individual series go, though, it goes back to supply and demand.
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Old 10 Jan 2018, 12:19 (Ref:3791723)   #62
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
The Ferrari 488 GTE comes out cheaper if you buy the GT3 version and the GTE conversion kit from Ferrari, rather than buying the GTE version straight from them.

It sounds barmy, but I assume there's a good reason for it.
It sounded like that was Risi's thoughts behind getting the car that way. Plus as they said, you have all the bits to make it a GT3 car again depending on the investor's needs/desires. But then it is a racing Ferrari and pedigree is king. Running LM, Daytona, Sebring, Spa and other big events has to add to the value.
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Old 10 Jan 2018, 13:30 (Ref:3791734)   #63
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This is a neat picture of the 2 Risi Ferrari's right next to each other. One is GTLM. The other is GT3. They look identical.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/wp-con...daytona-04.jpg
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Old 10 Jan 2018, 17:40 (Ref:3791788)   #64
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Originally Posted by MaskedRacer View Post
This is a neat picture of the 2 Risi Ferrari's right next to each other. One is GTLM. The other is GT3. They look identical.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/wp-con...daytona-04.jpg
That is a nice shot. thanks!

As far as other models that are similar between GTE and GT3, I remember seeing the Viper GTE next to the GT3 in Riley's paddock area a few years ago with bodywork removed, and there was a ton of difference between the two - even for my untrained eye. We could have added the BMW M6 last year as well to this comparison, but i don't know how similar those models were.
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Old 10 Jan 2018, 18:08 (Ref:3791799)   #65
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That was also a problem in the Grand Am days and early combined ALMS/GA/WTSC days. GT3 derived cars had to be built to a different spec than FIA/SRO specs, mostly roll cage.

I'd think that a similar platform where it takes only minor changes between the specs would be ideal. "Problem" there, is wouldn't GT3/GTE unification make sense then?
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Old 10 Jan 2018, 18:28 (Ref:3791803)   #66
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Originally Posted by joeb View Post
That is a nice shot. thanks!

As far as other models that are similar between GTE and GT3, I remember seeing the Viper GTE next to the GT3 in Riley's paddock area a few years ago with bodywork removed, and there was a ton of difference between the two - even for my untrained eye. We could have added the BMW M6 last year as well to this comparison, but i don't know how similar those models were.
The M6 was a modded GT3 to meet IMSA GTLM spec so I'm guessing very close in spec between the two cars. They were the early adopters of the still-born GTE/GT3 convergence talks.
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Old 10 Jan 2018, 18:40 (Ref:3791808)   #67
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
The Ferrari 488 GTE comes out cheaper if you buy the GT3 version and the GTE conversion kit from Ferrari, rather than buying the GTE version straight from them.

It sounds barmy, but I assume there's a good reason for it.
It is Ferrari, so maybe not.
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Old 10 Jan 2018, 18:41 (Ref:3791809)   #68
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I think the solution is simple honestly, but not sure it would ever been taken up..

1- drop GTE cars, just run GT3. In WEC GT3 could run as full factory efforts. In Blancpain for example only as semi factory.

2- cost cap GT3 cars... the cost of the car to purchase as the limiting factor. Then in WEC you bring a factory budget and all factory guns, the car is the affordable bit, the program cost depends on the other variables..


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Old 10 Jan 2018, 19:43 (Ref:3791827)   #69
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Originally Posted by carbsmith View Post
GTE doesn't require using the same engine as the street car and multiple cars in the class do not.
Every car currently homologated in GTE is using an engine derived from the road car model's engine.

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The "crazy" bodywork on the Callaway GT3 is mostly styling.
No it is not. All of those elements are done for aerodynamic performance - racecars are not designed to look good, they're designed to function properly - this goes for GT cars as well. They ahve to retain the roadcar appearance, yes, but those extensions are still designed to FUNCTION as effectively as possible.

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Some very good GT3s use almost identical bodywork to a GTE car.
Only in the most basic of appearance. When you loo kat the details it quickly becomes apparent that GT3 cars with a GTE equivalent tend to have more "developed" aero on the GT3 car, even if it is only in subtle ways. (for example: I'll bet you missed those big intakes on the rear fenders of the Corvette GT3)

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GT3 cars being faster than GTE unrestricted might have been the case under the 2015 regulations but isn't really under the 2017 regulations that have given GTE cars similarly large aero devices.
It's not simply the size that's the issue here - GTE aerodynamic devices are required to be rather simple, whilst with a GT3 car you can do far more. In the above pictures, it wasn't the SIZE of the rear wings I was making a point about, it was their DESIGNS.

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Some GT3s might have bigger engines but they aren't engineered to run at significantly higher outputs regardless.
In most cases, they ARE tuned for significantly more power. By engineering them to run significantly more power than they'll be bopped at, the engine will be more reliable once restricted down.

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The 488 GT3's purchase price is really high but that doesn't account for what it includes. The GT3 and GTE only have around $60,000 worth different parts.
That's not the point here. As an aside, I ignored the even more expensive McLaren due to it not being present in GTD. The matter just isn't as simple as you make it out to be.
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Old 10 Jan 2018, 19:55 (Ref:3791828)   #70
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But you haven't offered anything beyond you think. What are the "more developed" bits on each GT3 car? Is there a bend in the Callaway Vette wing tips for a GT3 specific rule or NOT bent based on GTE rules? And what specific benefit does it provide?

You've made claims with ZERO evidence to back them up. Claims without evidence is hot air and conjecture not fact.
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Old 10 Jan 2018, 21:07 (Ref:3791849)   #71
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
The Ferrari 488 GTE comes out cheaper if you buy the GT3 version and the GTE conversion kit from Ferrari, rather than buying the GTE version straight from them.

It sounds barmy, but I assume there's a good reason for it.
Sounds odd, but presumably the reason is Ferrari have a higher profit margin on the GT3, despite selling it for a lower price?
Can't think of another reason otherwise.
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Old 10 Jan 2018, 21:10 (Ref:3791851)   #72
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But far easier to get a GT3 and build your GTE as Risi did
Pardon my ignorance here (I'm not technically minded, or that bothered about the technical rules, so I've never had the inclination to learn about them), but does that mean one could buy any GT3 car and 'simply' convert it to GTE?
Say, if you bought a GT3 Lambo, could it be converted the GTE spec?
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Old 10 Jan 2018, 21:22 (Ref:3791854)   #73
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Originally Posted by Hawkwood View Post
Pardon my ignorance here (I'm not technically minded, or that bothered about the technical rules, so I've never had the inclination to learn about them), but does that mean one could buy any GT3 car and 'simply' convert it to GTE?
Say, if you bought a GT3 Lambo, could it be converted the GTE spec?
That's a Ferrari specific bit of kit, just the way they had Michelotto build the GTs. It's not applicable to other cars
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Old 10 Jan 2018, 21:54 (Ref:3791861)   #74
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Originally Posted by MaskedRacer View Post
This is a neat picture of the 2 Risi Ferrari's right next to each other. One is GTLM. The other is GT3. They look identical.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/wp-con...daytona-04.jpg
To my untrained eye, there seems to more going on on the gt3. Like louvresover front wheels, and maybe it's just shadowing, but extra bodywork in the opening in front of the rear wheel. Makes the gt3 look more high tech than gtlm.
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Old 10 Jan 2018, 22:55 (Ref:3791865)   #75
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Every car currently homologated in GTE is using an engine derived from the road car model's engine.
The Corvette is still using a Gen IV small block while all the street cars are Gen V. I don't think Porsche has ever stopped using the 997 GT2 engine either.

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Originally Posted by FormulaFox View Post
No it is not. All of those elements are done for aerodynamic performance - racecars are not designed to look good, they're designed to function properly - this goes for GT cars as well. They ahve to retain the roadcar appearance, yes, but those extensions are still designed to FUNCTION as effectively as possible.
It's not just a Corvette race car, it's a CALLAWAY Corvette designed with the same stylist that worked on the Sledgehammer, C7, and C12. That's why it has things like the C7 style bent rear wing that isn't used on any other GT car.
http://www.deutschmandesign.com/en/car/Callaway_GT3-R

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Originally Posted by FormulaFox View Post
Only in the most basic of appearance.
No, the Viper and 488 legitimately use almost entirely the same bodywork except for some bolt on devices and venting differences.

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Originally Posted by FormulaFox View Post
GTE aerodynamic devices are required to be rather simple
Not anymore. That's why Porsche had to move the engine.


http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/f...-gte-gt3-cars/
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Cannizzo said the biggest difference between the GTE and GT3 Evos are the adaptations to its respective set of regulations, as well as less engine development to the GT3 model.

“What we can say is that we have a common baseline and the GTE has a couple of features more because we can allow that,” he said. “It’s a different concept of car. One is made for customer racing, the other one is more for professional racing.
One of the Risi engineers did think the GT3 would potentially be a bit quicker than the GTE, because for that specific car it probably does have a bit better downforce with the front fender louvers and vents. For Porsche, whose GT3 car is much cheaper, much more basic aerodynamically, presumably requires much less restriction to reach the performance targets and is engineered more for gentleman drivers, not a chance.

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Originally Posted by Bcarr6 View Post
1- drop GTE cars, just run GT3. In WEC GT3 could run as full factory efforts. In Blancpain for example only as semi factory.
The thing about this is there's all those "last 1%" preparation bits that you leave off a customer car because 99% of the time they aren't necessary, but that the manufacturers can't stand to not have just in case when they are running factory teams at Le Mans. Stuff like redundant electronics costs significant amounts of money but offers no performance advantage unless something goes wrong, but you can't afford to not have that backup if you're leading at Le Mans and it does go wrong.

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Originally Posted by joeb View Post
I remember seeing the Viper GTE next to the GT3 in Riley's paddock area a few years ago with bodywork removed, and there was a ton of difference between the two - even for my untrained eye.
I think the GT3 Viper was basically running a stock engine? So the engine bay was quite a bit different even though they had pretty much the same chassis engineering.
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