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Old 28 Jan 2018, 11:14 (Ref:3796072)   #16
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Félix should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridFélix should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by knighty View Post
Cosworth have no recent turbocharging experience in high-level motorsport......if I was Andy Palmer I'd be knocking on Ilmors door and doing a deal with Mario Illien, as they have recent F1 turbo experience, not to mention IRL-turbo experience.......I think Cosworth are a shadow of their former selves and trading on their past.
If you were Andy Palmer, you'd know about their previous modern turbo project because you'd have commissioned it around 2013. Cosworth NV.

Also, their 1.6 F1 straight-four, HK, got into a road car that almost made it to production.

---

To me, Cosworth are not that bad; better recent track record than AER or Judd, behind TEOS-Mecachrome (they engineered the P.U.R.E project) or the design talent at VAG or BMW; but outside of hiring a genial free agent like Mario Illien, I can't think of better solutions.
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Old 29 Jan 2018, 10:53 (Ref:3796581)   #17
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coppice should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridcoppice should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The sad thing is that the ludicrously prescriptive rules effectively mean that different firms spend gazillions on making effectively the same engine. Sorry, power unit..... Granted, some do it better than others but look what we have had running against each other at the same time in F1 history - V8s ,10s and 12s ; in line 4s, V6s , V8s, V and Flat 12s, H16 . And now ? Tedious little droney V6 - ironic that affordable road cars offer more choice .
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Old 29 Jan 2018, 15:35 (Ref:3796650)   #18
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Originally Posted by coppice View Post
The sad thing is that the ludicrously prescriptive rules effectively mean that different firms spend gazillions on making effectively the same engine. Sorry, power unit..... Granted, some do it better than others but look what we have had running against each other at the same time in F1 history - V8s ,10s and 12s ; in line 4s, V6s , V8s, V and Flat 12s, H16 . And now ? Tedious little droney V6 - ironic that affordable road cars offer more choice .
Don’t forget the glorious BRM V16! 1.5-litres, each cylinder a little jewel.
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Old 29 Jan 2018, 17:51 (Ref:3796679)   #19
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coppice should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridcoppice should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
You're right - God knows how I forgot that beast . I'll raise you a W12 though, and for completeness , a straight six , straight 8 and a Flat 8 (was it a flat 8 in the Porsche ? I must check )
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Old 29 Jan 2018, 17:56 (Ref:3796680)   #20
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Originally Posted by coppice View Post
The sad thing is that the ludicrously prescriptive rules effectively mean that different firms spend gazillions on making effectively the same engine. Sorry, power unit..... Granted, some do it better than others but look what we have had running against each other at the same time in F1 history - V8s ,10s and 12s ; in line 4s, V6s , V8s, V and Flat 12s, H16 . And now ? Tedious little droney V6 - ironic that affordable road cars offer more choice .
Adrian Newey basically said this in his book. Very little technology carries over to road cars, and road car manufacturers aren't constrained by the same type of regulations as racing engines, so it's all a bit pointless.

Open engine formula please!
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Old 29 Jan 2018, 21:38 (Ref:3796717)   #21
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You're right - God knows how I forgot that beast . I'll raise you a W12 though, and for completeness , a straight six , straight 8 and a Flat 8 (was it a flat 8 in the Porsche ? I must check )
Stuttgart certainly ran a flat-8 in sportscars; I can’t remember off the top of my head if they raced one in F1 as well.
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Old 29 Jan 2018, 21:57 (Ref:3796720)   #22
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Stuttgart certainly ran a flat-8 in sportscars; I can’t remember off the top of my head if they raced one in F1 as well.
Porsche 804 F1 of 1962 was a flat 8.

Time for a picture, nice little diecast model




Last edited by wnut; 29 Jan 2018 at 22:04.
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Old 30 Jan 2018, 13:43 (Ref:3796885)   #23
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knighty should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridknighty should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Cough! - back on topic.......AM are rather serious about investing in the future

https://news.sky.com/story/aston-mar...ision-11228847

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Old 30 Jan 2018, 13:49 (Ref:3796888)   #24
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Originally Posted by Félix View Post
If you were Andy Palmer, you'd know about their previous modern turbo project because you'd have commissioned it around 2013. Cosworth NV.

Also, their 1.6 F1 straight-four, HK, got into a road car that almost made it to production.

---

To me, Cosworth are not that bad; better recent track record than AER or Judd, behind TEOS-Mecachrome (they engineered the P.U.R.E project) or the design talent at VAG or BMW; but outside of hiring a genial free agent like Mario Illien, I can't think of better solutions.
The problem with AM's last LMP1 engine and chassis was they tried to do it all on the cheap, in-house, and far too quickly......and the whole program was subsequently a crock of.

Prodrive had inexperienced people designing the engine and chassis aero, didnt plan properly and paid the price by publicly humiliating both Prodrive and AM together at once.......the lesson learned, plan properly and get good external contractors to do the job properly, then AM could market it like they do so well on all products.

but you need to carefully select the correct external contractors, I certainly agree Cosworth would do a better job than Prodrive, but if it were me I'd go straight over to Ilmor for an F1 engine project.......it was Newey that pushed Renault to go see his old mate Mario Illien is how Ilmor got involved with Renault, but then Renault gave Ilmor the cold shoulder treatment.
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Old 30 Jan 2018, 14:56 (Ref:3796915)   #25
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Mike Harte should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridMike Harte should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridMike Harte should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
Adrian Newey basically said this in his book. Very little technology carries over to road cars, and road car manufacturers aren't constrained by the same type of regulations as racing engines, so it's all a bit pointless.

Open engine formula please!

It does need to be borne in mind, though, that the primary reason that Mercedes started, and to a certain respect remain, streets ahead of their PU manufacturing rivals is because they had been working on similar technology for their road going vehicles for years before the new PUs were mandated for F1. Many of the engineers and technicians who joined the engine facility to produce the current PUs actually came across from their truck and car divisions because they had been working along parallel lines.

Don't forget that Renault, with the backing of Ferrari, persuaded the FIA to delay the introduction of these PUs by a year because they were no-where near ready, whilst Mercedes had been well on target. And even then, Mercedes' units were almost bullet-proof, whilst the Renaults couldn't even get out of the garages for the pre-season testing sessions.
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Old 30 Jan 2018, 18:32 (Ref:3796964)   #26
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Fair point, but that's backwards. That's not "F1 tech on the road", thats "We made something good and would like to use it". Clever lobbying more than anything else.
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Old 30 Jan 2018, 19:29 (Ref:3796984)   #27
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Fair point, but that's backwards. That's not "F1 tech on the road", thats "We made something good and would like to use it". Clever lobbying more than anything else.
True, but it does point to the fact that some, maybe a lot or possibly all the technology in the current PUs do have some road relevance, whether that be for cars or commercial vehicles. And Mercedes obviously believe that the technology used for both F1 and for road vehicles can be or is transferrable, regardless of which way round it is.

This was one of the major arguments that swayed the main board of directors of Daimler Benz to permit the uptake of the budget for continuing in F1, which had been in doubt back then. That, along with the team's estimates for fuel savings which they actually under-estimated.

To Mercedes, that is all relevant because it can have an impact on it's road vehicles. Much in the same way that it was imperative to Renault that the ICE should be a small displacement unit with turbo. Because that was relevant to their road vehicles.
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Old 30 Jan 2018, 21:13 (Ref:3797002)   #28
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
Adrian Newey basically said this in his book. Very little technology carries over to road cars, and road car manufacturers aren't constrained by the same type of regulations as racing engines, so it's all a bit pointless.

Open engine formula please!
I think some of the current F1 (and WEC LMP1) engine tech may not have road relevance, but I think quite a bit does. I am sure there is some "secret sauce" stuff that really only applies to the race engines, but much of the concepts is knowledge and experience that they can't unlearn. For example I fully believe there was cross pollination between the Porsche road (918 and upcoming Mission X) and the race cars.

As to Newey... I have a ton of respect for him, but I think he is pushing his particular agenda in those comments.

Richard
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Old 31 Jan 2018, 04:23 (Ref:3797058)   #29
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I think some of the current F1 (and WEC LMP1) engine tech may not have road relevance, but I think quite a bit does. I am sure there is some "secret sauce" stuff that really only applies to the race engines, but much of the concepts is knowledge and experience that they can't unlearn. For example I fully believe there was cross pollination between the Porsche road (918 and upcoming Mission X) and the race cars.

As to Newey... I have a ton of respect for him, but I think he is pushing his particular agenda in those comments.

Richard
This technology will only be relevant if the unscrupulous and their political servants manage to inflict it on the general population, a nice little earner!

Otherwise Adrian is right on the money, agenda or not.
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Old 31 Jan 2018, 09:46 (Ref:3797124)   #30
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This technology will only be relevant if the unscrupulous and their political servants manage to inflict it on the general population, a nice little earner!

Otherwise Adrian is right on the money, agenda or not.
Yes, the global cabal instructed Porsche and Ferrari to make hybrid and or electric cars against their will.

Yes, there have been/are government initiated incentives, but it is much more than that. High efficiency hydrocarbon/hybrid (short term) and electric (long term) vehicles are the future.

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