[VASC19R25] SuperCheap Auto Bathurst 1000, Mount Panorama 10-13th October (WITH POLL)

[JAFA851]

I don't know why everyone is saying it didn't impact SvG. On the broadcast they said he had 10 seconds more fuel in his car than 17 and 888, so come the last pitstop he would be in and out 10 seconds quicker. But that 10 seconds evaporated behind Coultard. I know Tander said being stuck behind Coultard helped them by not having to stack in the pits, but I don't know if he was not aware of their fuel level advantage, or if he was trying to talk it up for the punters at home? Either wya, it cost car 97 and a lot of other car big time.

[JAFA851]

Originally Posted by David Towe

Surely this is the most unsportsmanlike act ever seen in Australian motorsport? The 4 wheeled version of Trevor Chappel. DJR should be stripped of the win and given a holiday for a few meetings. Disgusting behaviour and I don't give damn who won or could have, I'm not a V8 Kit car fan at all so no vested interest here.

Exactly what needs to happen, 100%. A fine and loss of team points means absolutely nothing to them.

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by JAFA851

they said he had 10 seconds more fuel in his car than 17 and 888

Interesting.

Originally Posted by JAFA851

being stuck behind Coultard helped them by not having to stack in the pits

Hmmm...

Originally Posted by JAFA851

I don't know why everyone is saying it didn't impact SvG

It's a brain bender that's for sure

[Armco Bender]

Sad to see Saint Fabian the Patron Saint of Safe Driving copping so much grief from the unwashed ball sandpaperers.

[gtcapri]

Originally Posted by Average Punter

Sorry I don't see that that is relevant.

A forward pass is a forward pass. Just because they don't score a try doesn't make it suddenly OK.

So what 888 did in 2015 is acceptable then??

[gtcapri]

Originally Posted by Jamolad

I'll have a go.

It is really common for lapped cars to stay out when SC is called, get their lap back when leaders pit, race around unobstructed by SC, pit on the next lap, then join the back of the queue fueled and tyred and back on lead lap (or down one less lap).

There were at least 4 cars that did not pit even after being caught behind Fabian driving Miss Daisy...2 of those (Simona and someone else) still managed to get ahead of Scotty but behind JW, the other 2 (or more) ended up just behind Scotty.

All 4 of those would have got a lap back if not held up behind Fabian, and there may have been others that would also have stayed out but decided to pit once they realised Fabian made it so they could not get their lap back.

Those 4 (or more) that stayed out were 100% disadvantaged - can't see how you could argue they weren't. Argue they weren't going to win the race, but don't argue they were not disadvantaged.

Other than that, some drivers would have managed to jump Fabian and SVG if those 2 had to stack. Those drivers were disadvantaged.

There would have been others forced to stack longer behind their sister car than they should have due to everyone entering the pits bunched up behind Fabian. Those drivers were disadvantaged.

Seems naive to say it only impacted Fabian and SVG.

Plus others that were on lead lap and carrying more fuel may have chosen to stay out and get track position, hoping for another opportune SC. This one is a "maybe" though, so can't say there were definitely drivers planning to do this that were not able to.

So Fabian and Team Penske deliberately disadvantaged at least 4 cars that stayed out but did not get a lap back; everyone that would have gained track position on 12 and 97; and everyone that had to stack or stack for longer due to being closer to their sister car. They also disadvantaged anyone that would have been able to gamble on an alternate strategy.

A lot of would've and could've.

[gtcapri]

Originally Posted by David Towe

Two points, firstly there is no deafening silence here. I've already nailed my colours to the mast, I think they should be disqualified and suspended for a few meetings for perhaps the second worst sporting behaviour in history. The worst being Trevor Chappel's underarm bowl in the cricket test against the Kiwi's way back when.
Secondly, there is no manufacturer involvement is V8 kit Cars other than money and permission to call a kit car a Mustang or a Commodore anyway.

Wrong. This is a category who have had more than its fair share of comparable instances that could be easily construed as the 'second worst sporting incident'. Punting people off after being told to 'have them or have them off', holding the field back on the restarts in 2015, fire extinguishers cooling intakes for example. In general terms of sport overall its trumped by the NRL immortalising a druggie thug, Rugby with the antics of Richard Loe..................How many former race cars have been found with cheater components that were nowhere near legal but those teams and drivers are still immortalised. I guarantee 888 would've (and have done) the same thing. Just less obvious. So technically since 888 pioneered the practice, it makes it the third worse incident.

[gtcapri]

Originally Posted by Forda

His opinion is largely irrelevant, particularly more so given he had two cars running completely out of sync with the race.

His efforts might be better placed in getting his own team running properly, before worrying about anyone else's.

Which may come back to bite him next time one of his errant drivers punts one in a wall and he needs the assistance of FPR and Penske like he did last weekend.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by JAFA851

I don't know why everyone is saying it didn't impact SvG. On the broadcast they said he had 10 seconds more fuel in his car than 17 and 888, so come the last pitstop he would be in and out 10 seconds quicker. But that 10 seconds evaporated behind Coultard. I know Tander said being stuck behind Coultard helped them by not having to stack in the pits, but I don't know if he was not aware of their fuel level advantage, or if he was trying to talk it up for the punters at home? Either wya, it cost car 97 and a lot of other car big time.

#97 would have lost out because of double stacking, this is the time it takes to service Jamie's car minus 10 seconds, he would end up being jumped in pit-lane and end up several cars further back when returning to the track.

[Jamolad]

Originally Posted by gtcapri

A lot of would've and could've.

No it's not, read it again.

There were 4 cars that did not pit but were not able to get a lap back because of Fabian holding them up. This is not would have or could have, they did not get their lap back due to DJR Team Kiwi. Actually happened.

There were cars that did not get to jump 12 and 97 due to being held up. Did happen.

There were cars that had to stack for longer than they should have due to being closer to their sister car than they should have. That did happen.

The only bit that is "would've" or "could've" is the bit about some cars that might not have pitted if they were not held-up (which has since been confirmed there were some that changed strategy when they released they would not get track position due to being held-up).

[Alan52]

I have thought for years the racing regulations and the NASCARisation of such is designed to appeal to hillbillies and knuckleheads.A pity because in many ways Supercars is the best touring car category in the world.
The pathetic 1 lap Bathurst 1000 and Penske’s safety car tactics that have both degraded the one race that really matters will hopefully cause a major rethink in philosophy.Doubt it though.

[blizard]

Originally Posted by gtcapri

Wrong[ness]

Interesting thoughts....

When, though, has another team cheated all but one competing car and robbed them of 46sec of a race?

[JAFA851]

Originally Posted by bluesport

#97 would have lost out because of double stacking, this is the time it takes to service Jamie's car minus 10 seconds, he would end up being jumped in pit-lane and end up several cars further back when returning to the track.

Because 97 had more fuel on, I don't think they would have pitted at that safety car, I think they would have kept going and got track position, and gambled on another safety car. Everyone else was still very tight on fuel to the end so probably would have pitted for a splash and dash too. So 97 may have lost the lead then but wouldn't have been buried in the pack.

[Forda]

Originally Posted by blizard

Interesting thoughts....

When, though, has another team cheated all but one competing car and robbed them of 46sec of a race?

There is currently no charge of cheating which has been made relevant to this event.

[djr81]

Originally Posted by Average Punter

Good work djr.

We were talking about that during the race.

When was fuel saving even a "thing"? It came up over and over again during the race.

The only time I can remember it coming into play "in the old days" was in 2004 when Murph jumped a heap of cars in the last pitstop to take the lead (and ultimately the win)

For a long time it was five even(ish) stints, three for the A driver and two for the B.

Seems the shorter range has thrown a lot of that strategy out and made it more of a fuel race.

Being old I can remember Freddie Gibsons cars having some eye opening fuel economy in the mid nineties. Enough to think about a three stop race.

It used to be news when someone couldnt manage four stops and reverted to five. HRT did this probably more than anyone. But in the olden days you could have different fuel maps in the ECU and run them as lean as you dared.

I dont know how you would fix it even if you wanted to. You use thereabouts 20% more E85 than petrol and they had bigger tanks (120 litres vs 112). You would need 144 litres just to get back on even terms. No one wants that in the cabin with them.

But I think something should be done to help the racing revert to endurance racing, just no idea what.

Anyway back to frothing about safety cars and team orders.

[Jack65]

Originally Posted by djr81

Being old I can remember Freddie Gibsons cars having some eye opening fuel economy in the mid nineties. Enough to think about a three stop race.

Was Bathurst 1995 where Gibson Motorsport squeezed 38 laps (+ the outlap) from the first tank while everybody else had pitted by lap 35. Probably wouldn't have quite made it on 3 tanks as there was only 1 safety car that year, but last stop would have been a splash and go. Fuel economy was a factor in the Gibson car having a much shorter last stop in 1999 that allowed Richards and Murphy to leapfrog the HRT cars.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by JAFA851

Because 97 had more fuel on, I don't think they would have pitted at that safety car, I think they would have kept going and got track position, and gambled on another safety car. Everyone else was still very tight on fuel to the end so probably would have pitted for a splash and dash too. So 97 may have lost the lead then but wouldn't have been buried in the pack.

#97 would have pitted and double stacked, the #12 car prevented them from having to double stack so they benefitted.

[gtcapri]

Originally Posted by blizard

Interesting thoughts....

When, though, has another team cheated all but one competing car and robbed them of 46sec of a race?

888. Last weekend each and every one of them still formed up behind the safety car for the restart. In 2015 they were held back by Whincup at the restart costing the pack time and crucially distance to Lowndes.

[gtcapri]

Originally Posted by Jamolad

No it's not, read it again.

There were 4 cars that did not pit but were not able to get a lap back because of Fabian holding them up. This is not would have or could have, they did not get their lap back due to DJR Team Kiwi. Actually happened.

There were cars that did not get to jump 12 and 97 due to being held up. Did happen.

There were cars that had to stack for longer than they should have due to being closer to their sister car than they should have. That did happen.

The only bit that is "would've" or "could've" is the bit about some cars that might not have pitted if they were not held-up (which has since been confirmed there were some that changed strategy when they released they would not get track position due to being held-up).

They get back on the lead lap and then what??? Now theyre short a re-fuel. Their race was over when they went a lap down. Do you really think any of them wouldve been on the podium Sunday let alone deserve to be?
12 got a drive thru. Those behind benefited.

So using your lapped team mate to hold the field back at the restart and robbing those behind an opportunity to fight for the lead was any better or acceptable?

[Jack65]

Originally Posted by gtcapri

In 2015 they were held back by Whincup at the restart costing the pack time and crucially distance to Lowndes.

And correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't that why the maximum distance between cars rule was implemented to prevent a repeat?

[thunderbolt]

Originally Posted by bluesport

#97 would have lost out because of double stacking, this is the time it takes to service Jamie's car minus 10 seconds, he would end up being jumped in pit-lane and end up several cars further back when returning to the track.

97 only came in after being held up by car 12 he was not due to pit

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by thunderbolt

97 only came in after being held up by car 12 he was not due to pit

He didn't have enough fuel to go the distance so he would have had to pit again anyway.

[David Towe]

Originally Posted by Jack65

And correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't that why the maximum distance between cars rule was implemented to prevent a repeat?

I've been racing for 20 years now and as far as I can remember it's always been the rule, no doubt it would have been implemented way back when because of that very sort of incident but I don't think you can attribute it to the 2015 incident.

[Sandgroper]

Scotty won, best driver all weekend.
Fabs did what any other driver would have done in similar circumstances.

Awesome race, pity I wasnt there.

Lets move into the Gold Coast.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Sandgroper

Scotty won, best driver all weekend.
Fabs did what any other driver would have done in similar circumstances.

Awesome race, pity I wasnt there.

Lets move into the Gold Coast.

This.