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Old 21 Jun 2019, 09:44 (Ref:3913258)   #1
John Turner
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Driving Standards.

I see that Marcus Pye has had a real go about driver standards, particularly following last week's event at Cadwell. Anyone care to comment/discuss?
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Old 21 Jun 2019, 10:56 (Ref:3913273)   #2
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I see that Marcus Pye has had a real go about driver standards, particularly following last week's event at Cadwell. Anyone care to comment/discuss?
I read the article in Autosport, and have to agree with him in general, although not in a position to comment on any incidents at that meeting.

With regard to track limits, I watched quite a lot of Le Mans last weekend, and cars were often completely outside the kerbs! Didn’t notice any penalties, either.....
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Old 21 Jun 2019, 13:44 (Ref:3913297)   #3
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I don't take A/S and the article isn't available on their web site, any chance of a scan or a precis?

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Old 21 Jun 2019, 16:19 (Ref:3913340)   #4
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Not sure if this is infringing anything, but courtesy of Autosport.....
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Old 21 Jun 2019, 16:30 (Ref:3913346)   #5
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Not sure if this is infringing anything, but courtesy of Autosport.....
In 1999 the MSA as was, trained up a group of experienced people, gave them a badge calling them Driving Standards Observers - Race.

I was one of them and every year it still appears on my Licence with all the other titles.

Our sole job was to report incidents considered to be 'poor driving' and I believe that for a while the standards of driving did improve.

I used to do it reqularly in the early 00's including the support races @ the British GP. Eventually it died a death and I probably haven't done it once in the last 10 years.
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Old 21 Jun 2019, 16:58 (Ref:3913352)   #6
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grantp should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridgrantp should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridgrantp should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Not sure if this is infringing anything, but courtesy of Autosport.....

Interesting.

I didn't see any of the more controversial incidents at Cadwell other than one or two slower cars not always judging well how they got out of the way of those lapping them and now and again what seemed to be a complete lack of Blue flags at places and in situations where I would have expected they might be used.

But I don't drive and I'm not a marshal so there may be things that I missed.

One incident I did see was a car off on the inside at the Mountain, bits separated and hard into the barriers (driver OK) and a couple of laps before everyone was stopped and recovery could start. I think it was a dodgy place because just about every time I have been to Cadwell one or more incidents have occurred pretty much at that point.

I appreciate that it a relatively slow part of the circuit and the hill is steep so maintaining momentum is probably important but many driving through did not seem any slower than they had been on previous laps.

There were also a few situations where a car that was obviously having some difficulty continued on track and ended up having to pull off in a difficult position - then safety cars or red flag and frustrated competitors. Possibly also frustrated marshals.

On a flat circuit like Croft or Silverstone National one might be able to coax it back to the pits.

Cadwell is probably not a good place to try it though. Too many hills - notably into the Paddock - and no real pits to speak of even if one makes it back.

In Mr. Pye's FF example the failing car would have had nearly an entire lap to get through. At the point of difficulty there is a fair amount of space on the outside and a lot of safer area, as well as a marshal post, on the cut through to Mansfield. One would think that taking that option would have been better for all concerned although I suppose it might necessitate an immediate decision that could be difficult to make if the problem had the potential to be temporary.

If paying one's own bills I would have thought that discretion would be the better part of valour but perhaps it is the release from having to live life with complete discretion that make the weekend work for some.
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Old 22 Jun 2019, 07:58 (Ref:3913428)   #7
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Thanks for publishing Mike, I won't tell them if you don't.

Yes very wise words. It seems to have been forgotten that yellow flags are there for a reason, they are to protect a fellow human being not just a "rule" to be followed.

Crashing under a yellow is to my mind stupid and crass and should be penalised heavily, but I see it happen far too often.

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Old 22 Jun 2019, 18:54 (Ref:3913517)   #8
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Crashing under a yellow is to my mind stupid and crass and should be penalised heavily, but I see it happen far too often.
Wise words obviously together with spinning or crashing under SC. At last jump starts are more policed together with overtaking under YF, thanks to the people watching the live timing.
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Old 23 Jun 2019, 11:12 (Ref:3913662)   #9
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I have a view which is common knowledge in respect of track limits (and driving standards)

In the UK, poor driving standards are promoted on a regular basis... ITV have the contract, my friend DA does the commentary.... its called the BTCC and quite frankly, that is offered as "top flight" racing. The driving standards within this highly promoted series is sometimes rather like watching Arena Essex near where I was born and it rubs off very much so at grass roots racing.. I will never forget being at Castle Combe regarding an incident with a waved yellow and being shouted out by some 17 year old who had just got his licence telling me "leave it out love, you know you only lift on a waved yellow... plato does it all the time!".. bingo, well done..David is correct that there used to be out on post (even as late as when I came into clerking the sport in 2005) a Driving Standards Observer, I remember Andy Cox doing it at Snett for 750. but when a racer sees on TV track limits being exceeded time and again on F1, WEC BTCC why would he not think he can do it?

I have yet to have my yearly catch up with a certain Race Director but I also watched the Le Mans 24 and I was very much surprised by the fact that there were several cars running four wheels off alot! .. now, some of you ran with Masters when we did Porto.. and the famous briefing that EF did that I copied in respect of track limits and "The invisible concrete wall" so I was surprised that it was allowed without any action, but again, teams now at that level, seem to hold more sway than they ever should... and perhaps the ACO or indeed FIA or WEC have told him what is "allowed".. I doubt it, I will ask but i was surprised

I cannot stand the argument that "we need to go two wheels off " or everyone else does it... I fined someone once for saying that after they left the pit lane at Brands hatch going through a red light .. "I followed him"... lol would you if if was jumping off a cliff????? It's the same with the track limit over the white line, and no one can now say "you are not a racer, you dont know" because I am, and, I've won, (several times actually) in rmulti class races with varied machinery and never been exceeding track limits (Well not intentionally.. please dont bring up Rockingham and me losing it... thats different!), yet still got first in class or on the podium. .. and I always do say... if that white line WAS a wall... would you "Need to overhang it".. no... you wouldnt, because you would crash .. possibly die.... you dont need that "extra " bit... you are just effectively cheating .. its that simple

Driving standards in Historic have always traditionally been better, this is because 1) the drivers tended to be older and 2) the machinery in question tend to be more expensive, but, historics now at the low end is attracting younger drivers... and also, the machinery in question .. is not as "historic" as they were (80's and 90's cars are historic now peeps... I know you dont like it but they are!)

The simple fact is, that as long as you promote bad standards at the top end in ANY sport .. you will reap what you sow below... you only have to look at Sunday league football for proof of that ...

Yours... from the ivory tower
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Old 23 Jun 2019, 11:56 (Ref:3913681)   #10
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I was in a drivers meeting recently where half the drivers still didn't understand the UK track limits. They were arguing black was white that as long as two wheels were inside the white line it was ok. Poor old clerk was getting more and more exasperated until those of those who actually knew the rules waded in.

I think the BTCC might have a bit to do with it but, IMO, it's just pure ignorance. I've lost count of the number of drivers I've spoken to over the years who don't have a clue about the basic rules of racing.

For some reason many just can't be bothered to read rules or pretty much any communication given the number who don't know where to setup, what time briefings are etc etc.
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Old 23 Jun 2019, 12:14 (Ref:3913689)   #11
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I was in a drivers meeting recently where half the drivers still didn't understand........

For some reason many just can't be bothered to read rules or pretty much any communication given the number who don't know where to setup, what time briefings are etc etc.

There is another thread where this issue is discussed as well, thing is, you can lead a horse to water etc etc

1 Read the Blue Book
2 Read the Series Regulations
3 Read the Supplimentary "Finals"
4 ATTEND THE BRIEFING

but, your average racer cant be arsed to and therefore will blame everyone apart from themselves that they dont know.

the televised events just make it worse cause they see crap... so think its the norm
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Old 23 Jun 2019, 19:15 (Ref:3913760)   #12
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There are popular historic series where track limits - and any number of other rules and regs - are administered vigorously. They take place outside the UK. On which subject, why on earth does the UK have different track limit rules from the rest of Europe? What other than incomprehension and confusion is to be gained? Perhaps we should have a vote on it.
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Old 23 Jun 2019, 19:45 (Ref:3913764)   #13
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Lancsbreaker should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridLancsbreaker should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridLancsbreaker should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I'm sure one of the reasons why CSCC races are so well supported is that they have always adopted a firm line on driving standards and have a Clerking team who don't take any nonsense.......don't play by the rules, you don't race!
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Old 24 Jun 2019, 03:36 (Ref:3913822)   #14
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Track limit=the white line both inside and outside of every track.
Kerbing is on the outside of said track limit lines.
Over here on the Nordschleife there are five kerbs that "professional" drivers use. Originally it was said that its OK to have two wheels over these, so what's happening now, yep, proffiesnow going four off. Guy on tourist Fahrten decided if they can do it etc. He unbalanced the car so much the barrier repairs alone cost over six grand, plus the car was a total loss, not a cheap one either.
Basically, those kerbs are not there to abuse, they are there to stop lazy can't be bothered drivers from carving out pot holes in the soil beyond the kerb.
Shocked a guy two weeks back at Spa, BMW M2 competition, couldn't resist the magnetism of Hamiltons favorite past time. "Mind if I try you car?" Of course not, but I'm coming with you. Amazed that no, you don't need to use kerbs.The car could flow as well as it did, couldn't understand how it was ten seconds faster than his best ever time.
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Old 24 Jun 2019, 06:27 (Ref:3913835)   #15
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While IMHO the point of most concern highlighted by Marcus is driver’s reactions to yellow flags, it was interesting to see Danny Ric getting penalties at the French GP yesterday for exceeding track limits. With massive run off areas (originally incorporated as the track was designed for testing, I believe?) there were already (specific to the meeting) cones and ‘rejoining routes’ for some corners. One driver managed to follow a rejoining route and still gain an advantage, so was also penalised...
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