Yellow or green flag?

[exflagman]

A few comments on what is becoming quite a good thread.

I think Woolley and Dave B have probably got it about right - the aim should be to shut down the circiut for as short a distance and short as time a possible to let the drivers get on with what they are paying (or in the exceptional circumstances - being paid) for.

There is no point neutralising the track after the incident as this just results in drivers getting annoyed and hence can lead to them ignoring flags in the future.

Although each incident is different, in general there is a point on the circuit where an approaching car ceases to be capable of increasing the danger at the incident - unless the driver is really intent on getting involved! This point can be a surprising distance before the incident point depending on the circuit layout - as a result we should be trying to move the neutralised zone closer to the oncoming traffic - hence IMHO any stationary car close to the flag point should be considered as a candidate for green flag.

In the case of the Monaco incident that initiated this thread - I guess if I had been the flag marshal involved my initail reaction would be to throw a yellow as the car was spinning on the grounds that -

1 - Until the car comes to a stop there is no way of knowing where it will end up.

2 - The yellow may get any following drivers attention - although one would hope they would see the stationary car before the flag as in most cases a car is bigger than a flag (although some yellows I have had seemed to be size of a Legend )

3 - One would hope that the yellow would help wake up the previous flag point.

However - once the above conditions had been satisfied I would have switched to a green.

On the question of moving to cover the incident - if the incident is very close to the flag point I would be in general be more inclined to move in a direction to allow me to show a green rather than a yellow - although there are no hard and fast rules - it's all down to experience.

Good question about a driver be able to use it as a defence against overtaking under a yellow - if they could spot that the marshal had moved they must have spotted the fact that they where displaying a flag and hence would be admitting the offence. In any case the flag marshal could always claim they moved to avoid the accident.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by exflagman

However - once the above conditions had been satisfied I would have switched to a green.

Other way around. You'd show a green until the accident passed you and then go to yellow. I've done that a number of times and it's always good fun to do (not for the driver concerned of course).

On the question of moving to cover the incident - if the incident is very close to the flag point I would be in general be more inclined to move in a direction to allow me to show a green rather than a yellow

I agree

Good question about a driver be able to use it as a defence against overtaking under a yellow - if they could spot that the marshal had moved they must have spotted the fact that they where displaying a flag and hence would be admitting the offence.

LOL, like your thinking on this one. I'd be interested in a clerk's view of this situation. Obviouly, I'm not advocating leaving a flag point or taking more than about 4 strides - any distance that can't be covered in the time it takes to get the flag waving is too far. Dave's point about Oulton post being fixed I'd slightly disagree with. In most cases there's a pad and some fencing to stay behind which gives you latitude to move a short distance away from the fence.

[MikeM]

Assuming drivers slow when they see a yellow (!) then during practice, if you see a yellow and respond then your lap is spoiled so the number of sectors affected doesn't matter too much to me. In a race you can lose time to the car in front but drivers behind you should be slowed by as much as you do.

I think the important points are to give as much clear notice of an incident as you can and to avoid unnecessary yellows so that the ones given have the most impact on the drivers.

[gwar]

Originally Posted by Sticker Rub

...oh, you were being serious

Yes ok i was living in my dream world
I,m sure most poeple here have been trackside under waved yellows, and your thinking......have they slowed up.......dream on, especially the guys who have just pitted and racing to catch up with the pack, before saftey car comes in and goes green.
I appreciate that yellow sectors would be kept as small, short as posssible, but with a street circuit can it be difficult.

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Other way around. You'd show a green until the accident passed you and then go to yellow. I've done that a number of times and it's always good fun to do (not for the driver concerned of course).

I see where your coming from but my point was that the first reaction is to throw the yellow just to get things moving - i.e. for points 2 & 3.

As with everything it all depends on the circumstances and just emphasises the fact that you cannot make hard and fast rules about flagging and thus why you need experienced flag marshals who feel valued for the job they do rather than the MSA attitude that seems to be that anyone can flag 'cos it's easy (moan over!)

[Asp]

What I was trying to say earlier was to agree with Messrs Brand & Woolley - but with the proviso...

Originally Posted by exflagman

3 - One would hope that the yellow would help wake up the previous flag point.

Sometimes this is appropriate. Priority #1 has to be to get a yellow out, to give drivers warning. As has been said, there are circumstances where the incident is before the flag point, but after the line of last sight and the drivers would see your yellow before the car.

Adding everything together - sight lines of drivers, view of preceeding post, nature of incident... you can come to the decision that the yellow is the best flag to display. Once the preceeding post as spotted something's going on, then you may be able to display the technically correct green (this is where communication between posts before the day starts helps), and ideally you want the neutralised zone before and not after the incident.

But as PieMan says, flagging is an art and not a science

[Steven Humphrey]

Would I be right in thinking 'if in doubt, put a yellow out'? Surely, on safety grounds, it would be better to neutralise too large a section of track than not enough?

[Woolley]

Interesting question and I'll be interested to see the responses. My initial reaction is the opposite. The power of the flag comes from using it only where necessary and if you're in doubt, go down a stage. If you wonder if you should wave it, you should probably keep it stationary. If you're wondering if you need it, quickly ask yourself what you're trying to tell the drivers, you may not need it at all. I always aim for the minimum flag for the shortest amount of time giving due regard for everyone's safety.

[Hepatic]

same, because if the flags are over used then drivers tend to get desensitised to their severity and thus don't pay them as much respect. think of it like motorway matrix signs - how many times have you seen a message about "slow - 40 - accident" or "fog" only to find absolutely nothing that needed to slow up for? i've seen an accident caused by those signs simply because one person was obeying the 50 warning and someone else wasn't, quite likely for that very reason.

MSA rules make my life easier because i can convey a sense of severity by stationary or waved signals. FIA you can not, so its even more important to use the yellow sparingly otherwise when you really need them to arrest their speed in a serious incident they might just add to it.

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by arnage arnie

Would I be right in thinking 'if in doubt, put a yellow out'? Surely, on safety grounds, it would be better to neutralise too large a section of track than not enough?

This always seemed to be the mantra when I started flagging many, many years ago. However over the years I and many other flag marshals seemed to have reached a more enlightened conclusion that 'less is more' as far as use of the yellow flag is concerned.

This is based on a few basic concepts and associated catch phrases.

'The yellow flag is not a substitute for Superman' - i.e. The yellow flag only protects anyone if the drivers respect it and the more it is used inappropriatly the less respect the drivers have for the flag.

'You cannot wave a waved yellow' (John Newman) - i.e. If you are showing a waved yellow for a minor incident and the incident gets worse you have nothing left to use.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by arnage arnie

Would I be right in thinking 'if in doubt, put a yellow out'?

How about "if in doubt, think"?

It may be difficult for the flaggie at the previous flag point to judge exactly where the incident is in relation to you. By showing a green you are confirming that it is in front of you.

Surely, on safety grounds, it would be better to neutralise too large a section of track than not enough?

It's not a matter of neutralising too large a section of track - the normal flag sequence neutralises two sectors - it's a matter of neutralising the optimum two sectors.

[haystacks]

Well the drivers can,t say that didn,t see the flag, as Schumi said he saw waved greens at Monaco

[Steven Humphrey]

All good comments, all taken on board. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I've not got a lot of flagging experience so any tips are welcome. There does seem to be a bit more in the way of flag training at the moment, especially with the new grading schemes, but it does seem to be a skill that is only really learnt through practise and experience.

[gwar]

Originally Posted by exflagman

'You cannot wave a waved yellow' (John Newman) - i.e. If you are showing a waved yellow for a minor incident and the incident gets worse you have nothing left to use.

I disagree with that.....Its the speed and energy you wave it......
I,m sure when you see the safety car out for quite a few laps ...the yellow is waved nice and slow...could go on for a while.
Where as i,ve had a legend on its roof in the middle of the track at mallory once.....and believe me anyone who didnt see it, wasnt...at mallory.....and the oncoming traffic knew something serious was going on...
And proberly the post before me must have wondered why i was waving like a mad man....

[exflagman]

But what would you have done if despite your frantic waving other cars had run into the upturned car?

I'm not disputing the fact that you can vary the urgency of the flag signals but why start from a position where you restrict your further options - if you can safely cover an incident with a stationary what extra cover does a waved give you?

[Steven Humphrey]

Originally Posted by exflagman

But what would you have done if despite your frantic waving other cars had run into the upturned car?

I'm not disputing the fact that you can vary the urgency of the flag signals but why start from a position where you restrict your further options - if you can safely cover an incident with a stationary what extra cover does a waved give you?

Would you really cover an upturned car in the middle of the track with anything less than a waved yellow? In theory, any incident can develop into something bigger (unless the whole field piles in as at the Belgian GP several years ago!!). Would it be acceptable for the preceding post to upgrade their stationary to a waved if they could see the incident got much worse?

[nomad_n]

This is an arguement that happens quite alot in NZ & in Aus. But we have the general you can always upgrade the flags from a stationary yellow to a waved yellow and even a dble waved yellow if needed.

As for the car being turned into a turtle that situation would be a dble yellow over here.... and the proceeding point would be advised by ROC to go a single yellow....

[gachjoel]

Originally Posted by arnage arnie

Would I be right in thinking 'if in doubt, put a yellow out'? Surely, on safety grounds, it would be better to neutralise too large a section of track than not enough?

In theory, but what you have to watch is you dont over flag with the yellow.
which is something this season the clerks are mentioning in the briefing.
quite often i have had to ask my flaggy to downgrade to stationary as it didnt warrant a waved..eg, all 4 off but heading in the right direction

[Stuart Hill]

Originally Posted by arnage arnie

There does seem to be a bit more in the way of flag training at the moment, especially with the new grading schemes, but it does seem to be a skill that is only really learnt through practise and experience.

which explains precisely why you'll notice that so many of the critics of the current grading system tend to be long-serving flaggies. It used to take us years to achieve the "Blue Grade" and we are rightly proud of our grade.

without going into the pros and cons of grading, plenty of other threads for that, what this thread does prove is that there are far more variables when flagging. Even a simple "pull-off" can require completely different flag signals depending on the location as opposed to the general rule of incident marshalling which is "Stay Safe and call driver to you". (very simplistic I know, but you get my drift).

The original question actually sums it all up for me.............

An Experienced Marshal MAY know the answer but

A Blue Badge Marshal SHOULD know.

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by arnage arnie

Would you really cover an upturned car in the middle of the track with anything less than a waved yellow?

I don't think I was advocating being that 'adventurous' in those circumstances.
The point I was trying to make was that in general there is a tendancy to over use the waved yellow when a stationary would be perfectly adequate.

[Asp]

Originally Posted by gachjoel

quite often i have had to ask my flaggy to downgrade to stationary as it didnt warrant a waved..eg, all 4 off but heading in the right direction

Personally (depending on the corner, circuit, etc) - if all 4 off but they're heading in the right direction I won't bother flagging. Whilst they're still going, they're not a hazard IMHO. They could become a hazard when they rejoin the circuit - and deciding if that's going to need a yellow is where flagging becomes an art again.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by arnage arnie

All good comments, all taken on board. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I've not got a lot of flagging experience so any tips are welcome. There does seem to be a bit more in the way of flag training at the moment, especially with the new grading schemes, but it does seem to be a skill that is only really learnt through practise and experience.

The best training of all happens on post working alongside the best. Anything I'm posting here comes courtesy of some very, very good, very patient colleagues over many years, and I can still find myself alongside people that I'm in awe of. I hope my flagging in practice matches the theory given here - I always intend it to, doesn't always happen