Yellows v Reds

[Bob Pearson]

Here's a subject I would like to air with you boys and girls, bearing in mind that my views come from behind the steering wheel looking out.
Now it seems to me that any interruption of a qualifying period renders that part of the qualifying as wasted and pointless as the whole intention of qualifying is to set a lap as fast as is possible, a situation that cannot be achieved if the yellow flag rules are adhered to. It therefore follows that there is no point in viewing a situation of an incapacitated car and thinking that it is safe to defend it with a yallow to the end of the qualifying session as any such action means we may as well all drive into the pit road and get out.
In a race, however, it seems far more tolerable to defend the incapacitated car with a yellow while we all race on to the end. That would only cease to apply for real safety reasons or when there are so many incapacitated cars that it became a full course yellow.
Assuming we all agree with that tirade, are you given different instructions by the C of C for deciding on yellows rather than reds during qualifying than a race.
I discussed this at length with Ray Sumner, C of C at Oulton last W/end and I found him far and away the most pleasant Clerk I have ever had occasion to speak with. It's a pity there aren't more like him.

[stroller]

Bob,

I think you should find that any vehicle/danger that is not considered worth moving should be covered by the Hazard Board - after the Flag Marshals/Observers are satisfied that as many drivers as possible are aware of it presence. Thus negating the use of continual yellow flags.
(both for practice and racing)

[Bob Pearson]

Hazard Board, I never thought of that, I can't remember the last time I saw one of them being used.

[EvilPumpkin]

Hi bob,

Well I've no doubt others with more familiarity with the rules and more flagging experience can clarify this further, but this is how I understand it:

When something comes off, but is not in such a dangerous position that it needs to be immediately removed during a qualifying session, it will be protected by yellows for one, possibly two laps. This is to allow for all drivers to see the hazard and note the position. At this point, a hazard board will be put out. Hazard boards are informational and do not impede either speed or overtaking. (note - hazard boards do not apply in Ireland - we don't use them - but the concept is the same. Keep yellows out for one or possibly two laps and then withdraw them). Also, if marshals are attempting to remove the car or taking other action around it (helping the driver out/dealing with a fire/pulling electrics etc.) then the yellow will stay out as long as they are in the area.

Red flags may be requested by the marshals, but only the CoC can decide if the flag will be shown. Marshals will never put out a red unless it goes out on the Start/Finish first on the instruction of the CoC. If the CoC decides that a red is not warrented, he/she may request that the sector is run under yellows for the rest of the session if necessary if it's felt that the Hazard Board is not going to be sufficient for the protection of the other drivers.

HTH (and hope I've got it right! )

[Stoowert]

Bob, if you say you may as well go in the pits when a yellow is shown, what's stopping you? Qualifying is not 20 mins of flat-out speed surely. Isn't it part practise, part learning parts of the track? I've often thought that when a big accident happens in qualifying, then all times should be dissallowed, as the driver hasn't been observing the flags and backing off. If we had red flags for every incident, you'd get about 5 mins every session! Thats a general "You" not You in particular! Thanks for asking such a question on this forum.

[KayBee]

Hi Bob! In answer to your question and to reiterate what EP has said a Hazard Board is displayed, if the Observer considers it safe for the cars to continue racing, once the marshals, driver and other personnel have vacated the scene if the car is still there.

On Saturday one of your colleagues decided to visit us, however, a Red Flag was declared before the Hazard Board stage was reached even though a car still needed to be recovered.



PS Dave was greedy he had TWO of your colleagues we only had one.

[Paul Newns]

Another aim of qualifying is to ensure all drivers do three laps. If a session is ended prematurely there may well be drivers who have done less than this and so technically do not qualify to race (although laps behind a course car can be arranged).
I have often wondered what drivers make of the hazard board. It seems the answer is nothing if they aren't seeing them (either you drive in a series with very few breakages/incidents and they aren't needed or the boards aren't being seen). They are there for insurance purposes so drivers can't say they weren't warned of a potential hazard but I'd be interested in what other drivers feel about them.
I agree that Ray is an excellant Clerk, and he still does a few days on the bank too as an observer.

[rumblefish]

Paul, you just got in before me on this one. I have always wondered whether drivers can actually see the hazard boards. They always appear very small to me on the bank (the hazard boards, not the drivers!), let alone zipping round the circuit. I would be very interested to hear comments on this - are they really just there to satisfy a regulation?

[Woolley]

Bob, a very good question and worthy of some thought. Some immediate answers here, but I'm sure there's some very good discussion to come out of it.

At the risk of saying the wrong thing, Hazard boards are one of those 'seen to be doing something' solutions following a court case many years ago. I'm sure it's been discussed on here before, so do a search and you should come up with something. By putting out the board then we're seen to be notifying the drivers of a change to the circuit condition (ie a stranded car) so if they hit it, they were warned.

Yellow flags, in my opinion, tend to be overused, particularly in their waved state. An understandable reaction, but if a car has gone off and isn't presenting an immediate risk to the other drivers, then a stationary is fine. If marshals attend - actually going over the wall - then the flag will always be waved for their protection, that's why a driver should make a point of slowing sufficiently to guarantee retaining full control and the ability to change direction if needed. Otherwise, once every car has passed the stranded vehicle and seen the warning, then the yellow should be withdrawn. Now I don't know the clerks view of this (slap me if I'm wrong) but I'm not overly worried by speed under stationary yellow conditions, though I would still take a dim view of someone actually spinning or going off circuit. If they're waved, though, we'll be watching you carefully...

So to reds. I have a suggestion here. The programme is usually set to allow time for a few reds in practice delaying things over lots of short sessions. Champ Car do it differently. A dodgy off in practice is always red-flagged. It guarantees that everyone will slow down straight away and you can get straight into the clear up even before all the cars are back (though red flags didn't seem to slow BTCC at Mondello, where one driver went off after the reds were out). There's also no question about when people were setting times, were the yellows out, waved or stationary... Too much interpretation, too much chance of the guilty getting off on a technicality. However, all sessions run to time, and if it's 25 minutes, that's what you get - no extention for stoppages. How about if all qualifying sessions were extended say by 5 minutes, but in no additional time will be granted if the session is stopped? Guaranteed programme times, no carrying over losses into someone doesn't get a race because of curfew are two advantages. Over the season, the extra time and the losses will probably offset, so no reduction in value for money. Plus it has the 'school detention' effect that occurs when the whole class is kept back and the culprits suffer peer pressure. Have lots of offs, and you're upsetting your fellow drivers which may have a deterrent effect.

Discuss...

[Asp]

Originally Posted by Woolley

How about if all qualifying sessions were extended say by 5 minutes, but in no additional time will be granted if the session is stopped? Guaranteed programme times, no carrying over losses into someone doesn't get a race because of curfew are two advantages. Over the season, the extra time and the losses will probably offset, so no reduction in value for money. Plus it has the 'school detention' effect that occurs when the whole class is kept back and the culprits suffer peer pressure. Have lots of offs, and you're upsetting your fellow drivers which may have a deterrent effect.

I've known this very thing happen in the past for free practice (not qualifying_ sessions. I personally think it's great, as there's no pressure of needing to set a time in a practice session, and it works well - especially if it's a "quick red" for a car in a dangerous position that just needs quick recovery.
The problem lies if there are long stoppages (barrier repairs, drivers needing extricating etc) - if it happens early in a practice/qualifying session, then none of the drivers could potentially get any decent laps in, maybe even not the 3laps required. Also, this couldn't guarantee the timetable, unless the clock for the next practice starts running on time, which would obviously be grossly unfair.


On the subject of Hazard Boards, I was trained that it is not required to show the yellow for a full lap in certain situations (ie. if the car is in a very safe position, and when the marshals are clear is not a 'Hazard' to justify a yellow, but is a change to how the track started so does require a HB). Obviously, if drivers can't see the HB, there's no way they'll know there is an extra car against the armco if they didn't see the yellow (and then if they did, they may assume that as the yellow's gone the car's gone if they don't see the HB nearby).


Back to the original point - I think it's rare than an incident is covered under yellows for the remained of a practice session. During a race certainly, as (as Bob said) the racing can still happen in the clear parts of the circuit. But, this will generally only happen if the incident happened near to the end. One thing I am seeing more of (and am personally very keen on) is sessions and races being flagged before the allotted time if the car is a dangerous position and the race needs ending, but not so immediate that it needs a red. This obviously means that those half way through a fast lap don't have to stop because of a red flag, and races won't be decided on Countback which is far too confusing and can result in the person crossing the line first not winning - I'd be interested to hear what Bob and other drivers think of this happening?

[Mark Mitchell]

Hazard boards are used at Oulton and reported and documented by Race Control.

Regarding Ray Sumner - I agree that he is one of the Country's finest Clerks and a very nice bloke to boot.
It's also a damned shame that the BMMC North region are losing him from their committee after 25 years.

[flagwaver]

Like every thing else there are pro's & con's with stopping a session. Not least how would a driver feel if just as he was comming up to the end of his best timed lap the red flag came out for a car off behind him?
More red flags would mean less track time for everybody & one of the gripes I hear from drivers is they don't get enough time on the track.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Asp

On the subject of Hazard Boards, I was trained that it is not required to show the yellow for a full lap in certain situations (ie. if the car is in a very safe position

Yes that's true. In fact there's been a couple of occasions where I didn't put a yellow out at all for exactly that reason. No point in closing down a section of track it it's not needed.

Re shortened practice times - it's always a risk of a session being shortened to nothing much, but I guess you could have a guaranteed minimum. Similarly, there may be reasons for not starting the next session on time and of course you wouldn't penalize a later category. That said, better to lose a chunk of practice than a chunk of race, I'd have thought?

I suspect that after a settling down period, drivers would get quite used to needing to be sensible for the first few minutes while everyone gets their three laps in, and perhaps that would discourage some of the wilder types if it meant that everyone would lose time if they misbehave regularly. With a lot of sessions being 15 or 20 minutes at the moment, it's not so unusual for practice to be curtailed after 10, especially as lunch or start of racing is approaching. Set the session to 25 or 30 minutes but with no time added on for bad behaviour, it's quite possible that most people would actually end up with more practice time, especially when averaged over a season.

Maybe one of the packages such as the new Dunlop one would like to experiment with it, even if only over a few meetings?

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by Bob Pearson

Hazard Board, I never thought of that, I can't remember the last time I saw one of them being used.

During the Formula Renault race at Oulton Park last weekend

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Yes that's true. In fact there's been a couple of occasions where I didn't put a yellow out at all for exactly that reason. No point in closing down a section of track it it's not needed.

Not disputing the point, just discussing.... but I would have personally thought that a yellow for one lap would be needed? After all, ONE car managed to get in there.........

[Bob Pearson]

That was brilliant redshoes and answers a lot of the questions on this thread. I know which car that was, I know exactly where it was off, I saw it every lap as it was in front of me as I turned into Lodge, but not once did I notice the hazard board. Was it out at the previous post, where I suggest it would have served a greater purpose. After all a 97 Tatuus is considerably bigger than the HB shown above it. And with Blossies lurid paint choice it was considerably brighter as well

[Mark Mitchell]

Bob, the HB is not required to be displayed the the previous post although in this instance it would have probably been better to do so!

[Tim Draffan]

During a recent practice session a car went into the gravel on the first or second lap, yellows were shown and the car was moved by a JCB but rather than being taken further back where no other car could of reached it, it was moved along the length of the trap getting closer to to the circuit untill it was feet away from the track before being taken behind a barrier this manouver took 10 minutes, the session was then red flagged due to another incident, we therefore only had 2 clear laps to set a time in, surely just moving the car as far back as possible and putting out a hazard board would of been a better solution than having a JCB, car and marshalls trackside for so long?

Not having a go at marshalls but interested in the thinking behind it.

[Bob Pearson]

maybe these HB's should be bigger and used more often. After all the issue to the drivers during qualifying is reasonably straight forward. It is " can we drive on the limit"
Apart from the first laps or more if a driver is unfamiliar with the circuit that is what we are trying to do.
So a break of a couple of laps while a car is moved has to be expected, the situation which I earlier said means we may as well stop and get out is when a conscious decision is taken to protect a striken car for say the 10 remaining minutes of a qualifying session. The downside of this for you people is that it encourages drivers to ignore the flags and try to set a time, this isn't beneficial to any of us.

[Flagman]

I think Bob might just have answered his own question

If the car is in a 'hazardous' position then the driver should be able to see it and make the appropriate changes to his driving. If he cannot see the car then it is probably not in a particularly hazardous position and hence does not warrent a yellow flag.

As Wooley points out - the HB was introduced after a driver had an off, hit an abandoned car and brought a cour tcase - he must have had a very good lawyer, as if I remember correctly, the driver has passed the abandoned car several times before he had his own accident.

I believe the 'show yellow for several laps before the Hazard Board is displayed' was a mistake promolgated by one person - I have never seen anything in the Blue Book that stated it had to be out for a given period.

[Bob Pearson]

Yep, Flagman, that's all logical stuff, but the only appropriate driving change available is to drive slower, which, as I pointed out earlier defeats the object of qualifying.
To be honest, I don't think there is an answer, as to take my arguement to its logical conclusion would mean a red everytime a car went off which is out of the question.
What my original post was suggesting was should the yellows v reds not be considered differently by yourselves in qualifying to the race because of what we are trying to do in the two different periods.

[Bryan Degerlund]

Hi Bob, whilst the marshals' posts can request a red flag, the ultimate decision is by the Clerks alone. Unless it is a major incident, they will be reluctant to stop a race, with subsequent delays, including issuing new grid, allowing for countback and "discussions" with teams and drivers who cannot understand why their brilliant overtaking manoeuvre on the last lap has been negated. This is where a safety car is so beneficial (but that's another thread!)

So to answer your original comment, yes different emphasis is placed on the red flag between practice and race.

[Bob Pearson]

Thanks Bryan, that last sentance answered my question. as long as the emphasis isn't based on how close lunch time is !!
All this has led me to having to make a dreadful admission, I don't know whether overtaking under a HB is allowed !! can anyone tell me? The fact that I don't seem to be able to see them renders it slightly irrelevant, but I should know really.

[blackhands]

Originally Posted by Bob Pearson

All this has led me to having to make a dreadful admission, I don't know whether overtaking under a HB is allowed !! can anyone tell me? The fact that I don't seem to be able to see them renders it slightly irrelevant, but I should know really.

If that's the case then we flag marshals are totally wasting our time.

A hazard board is never put out without having been preceeded by a yellow flag so drivers should be aware that there has been an incident at that particular point. That's why it's important to use the yellow for at least one lap so that all drivers are aware of the hazard.

Isn't one of the reasons Clerks are reluctant to red flag either a race or practice session is that this enevitably means more time taken in what are becoming very crowddd days to accommodate as many races as possible in order to spread circuit cost over more drivers?

[Bob Pearson]

Blackhands, that didn't add anything in the way of an answer. Of course no-one can overtake while the yellow is out, but what about when the yellow is retracted and a HB is left out?
I have seen no evidence of a general reluctance on the part of Clerks to red flag races or qualifying periods. Ocassionally yes and occasionally the other way, but no general trend at all.