Yellows v Reds

[stroller]

Overtaking after the HB is OK (bear in mind there is no way of showing the equivalent to the Green flag after the reason for the board). It also serves a double purpose that if the yellows were continuously shown and there was another incident (it has been known ) you can then effectivly "upgrade" the HB to the yellow flag again, thus warning drivers of something else.

[goforit500]

Interesting Stuff here....

There is huge pressure during qualifying to set a time early in as we know that there is usually only 15 minutes and if the session is stopped we probably won't get out again.....That means that cars are probably going for it a little earlier than maybe they should when drivers and cars aren't quite into the swing of things (Especially if it happens to be the 1st session of the day !!)

So....

Why don't we run a safety car and snatch vehicles during practice (lets also remember that this is qualifying as well and there will be people who are out to set times rather than learn where the corners are...)...?????

This would have several benefits, not only to the officials but to the drivers as well...

1. You can keep the car & tyres reasonably warm...

2. Knowing that there WILL be some time at when the safety car goes in means that folks won't come rattling out of the pitlane with three minutes of practice left and stuff it into the nearest staionary object.....

3. The safety car could "release" the pack in a controlled manner so that a bloddy great wedge of cars don't go at the same time, trying to get to the front and set times etc etc

4. Drivers would "get" their track time

5. The problems car/cars can still be recovered to the paddock at the end of the session....

Just seems like common sense to me.....There is nothing more frustrating than starting to get the head down for a couple of fast ones and getting red flags and session ended.

Knowing that we would get the full session would surely ease a lot of pressure on the drivers and by consequence reduce the number of red flags as people won't be putting it on the line so early.....

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

Not disputing the point, just discussing.... but I would have personally thought that a yellow for one lap would be needed? After all, ONE car managed to get in there.........

Sensible question. On both occasions I can think of it was for a retiring car which pulled well away from the track in an extremely safe place and the driver could step straight out of the car to behind the wall. No actual reason for interupting the session occurred, so I just plonked out the HB and that was it. The first time it happened, I did check with my Obs, because I wasn't sure, but I got a thumbs up. The second time was even more clear cut. It's something I would suggest we should always consider, but only rarely do. That's twice in about 10 years, so I don't make a habit of it!

To Bob, yes you can overtake, etc while the hazard board is out. It's advisory for an off-track change in the same way that the red/yellow advises of an on-track change of surface. I don't believe it serves any purpose other than to say 'we told you so' if you then hit the car, in much the same way tha advice labels on electrical equipment are just legal disclamers. if you do put you're dog in the microwave, we told you not to. That sort of thing!

[Flagman]

There is no prohibition of overtaking under the Hazard Board in the Blue Book - providing the yellow flag is not also out.

[Rich D]

Interesting discussion -- I liked the idea of Hazard boards when we saw them at Brands this summer, interesting to see the discussion...

In Canada -- we have a system of downgrading, so we are waved for 2 laps, and if the situation is going to be permanent then go steady for 2 laps, then no flags -- opening up the track for passings etc. again. OF course, if the incident is off track, then we start at steady, and if it is far enough off track may even not flag at all.

My problem with this is trying to remember how many laps I have been yellow for-- while concentrating on managing the incident I almost always forget to count, or find a marker car.... Well, last meeting I was just glad to get the yellow down as I was fed up with writing up passes under yellow, but that's another story!!

I've been wondering if the hazard board would be good over here, as it would mean we can get it out earlier, and not have to worry about cars that were pitted, or driver changes etc..

On the subject of Champ Car -- I believe their qualifying is on the lines of "1 hour, 45 minutes of which must be green" - so that usually gets it done - i've never seen one overrun. They also hand out penalties for causing a red in qualifying. I think some of thier willingness to go red is so the car can be towed in and possibly get out again.

And then, the hazard board would never be used in Champ Car because of their "Mario Rule", which now states that you will wave a yellow for ever if there is a car stopped in your sector - thanks to Mr. Andretti's brain fade a few years back...

As for reds, I never want to have to make that decision. That's up to the clerk. I can let him know I think it would be a good idea, but they are in the best position to look at the whole picture.

[goforit500]

BTW - I can't ever recall seeing a hazard board in 15+ years of racing....

[Bob Pearson]

Careful Goforit, you saw what heppened to me earlier

[blackhands]

Bob
I didn't intend to give you an answer - you should know or at least have the sense to read the Blue Book.

I can't believe that people can claim never to have seen a Hazard Board - these must be the same people who don't see black flags etc at the finish line, don't see waved yellows so still overtake - or like the idiot at Loton at the weekend who went through two waved red flags and wanted to overtake a stalled car I was attending to.

[goforit500]

But isn't that the point Bob....

If we don't see 'em they are completely pointless and has been stated, they aren;t there for our benefit - They are there merely to avoid litigation ....

Must be a better way of managing these situations, like the one I proposed earlier......For instance !!

[Mark Mitchell]

Hazard Boards are simply an Insurance Policy for the organising Club.

I agree that they are not very big and could possibly get lost in the background scenery when you are driving full chat!

Bob asks why they are not used more often - the fact is Bob, I guess you & others simply have not noticed them (Due to reasons in paragraph 2) but in my experience as a Flaggie and now Observer, they are ALWAYS displayed following the withdrawal of a yellow flag IF the offending vehicle is still in a place that renders it liable to be struck by another competing vehicle.

[goforit500]

No need for that Blackhands....

I've been pulled once in fifteen years of racing for missing a yellow flag & that was because my view was obscured by another car...

Your statement is inflamatory and adds nothing to the discussion....

[Gridlock]

Some excellent comments on this thread and I agree the HB's are sometimes difficult to see. However I must ask the question. Why are the cars parked there?
In an accident or sudden mechanical failure I fully understand the car stops and thats it. There are many occaisions however when an ailing car, maybe trying to reach the pits parks up having past one or more places where it could pull off with complete safety and no yellow flag. This often happens when a car meets an incline. Do drivers brief themselves on safe pull-in areas before they go out on track?

[Bob Pearson]

Thanks Goforit, it saved me saying it. This has been a good Friday discussion and confrontation isn't needed. Just for the record I have over 300 races behind me and have been pulled twice for stationary yellows, but I still admit to missing what seems an awful lot of HB's including that one in the rather embarassing photo.

[Ian Sowman]

At risk of making a silly point, perhaps "safe pull-in" areas could be effectively signposted?

[goforit500]

And maybe a sign a couple of hundred yards before saying, "If yer going to stuff it, this is a good place to do so " :rofl

[Rich D]

I have often wondered why drivers seem to pull in where they do, often only just past the safe place I want them in! I can only put this down to the deep rooted desire to get back to the pits, and possibly fix the issue.. And then I experienced it first hand at a charity go-kart event last weekend -- my drive belt snapped, and I saw a safe exit (unused part of the track) but at that moment thought I could coast back to the pits. 2 seconds later, I realised I was wrong, and had to park on the grass in a none-too-great position. Felt very silly as well.

Another good idea from Champ Car, which I have seen work, is that they mark each "Safe Haven" with a horizontal traffic cone attached to the wall/fencing. An ailing dirver just has to stop at one fo these, and he can be pulled in very quickly -- saw this first hand when Justin Wilson retired at our safe haven in Montral 2004 - took about 20 seconds to pull him in, then back to no flags racing. If he'd gone 100 yards further and parked on the grass, would have forced a full-course caution to go get him.

[archaic gold]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

At risk of making a silly point, perhaps "safe pull-in" areas could be effectively signposted?

I know that Motorcycles are comparitively small in relation to cars,but at Brands Hatch the gaps in the tyre walls are marked with a white/green flexible board where a Bike can be safeky pushed off the racing area. This is a requirement by FIM for the World Super bikes. I agree that a similiar system could be designed for cars; perhaps an orange arrow on a white background??

[Asp]

Originally Posted by archaic gold

I know that Motorcycles are comparitively small in relation to cars,but at Brands Hatch the gaps in the tyre walls are marked with a white/green flexible board where a Bike can be safeky pushed off the racing area. This is a requirement by FIM for the World Super bikes. I agree that a similiar system could be designed for cars; perhaps an orange arrow on a white background??

Indeed, we obviously already have the exisiting orange indicator for a gap in the armco. Perhaps this would be better used for a large gap in the armco designating a safe pull of point?

[blackhands]

Didn't mean to be inflammatory, but this is a very serious topic indeed. (I can't understand why this bulletin board has to take such a sanitised view of things and tries to suppress controversy). If someone claims never to have seen a hazard board in 15 years of racing then obviously there's something seriously wrong. I don't know how long hazard boards have been commonly used but I find this comment difficult to comprehend.

I still hold that there are drivers who never seem to see yellow flags and continue to overtake (at least they claim not to have seen them - which means that if they have they may be wilfully putting other drivers or marshals lives in danger).

[Ian Sowman]

The point on whether certain drivers claim not to see yellow flags is irrelevant to this discussion though.

Let's face it, hazard boards are smaller than flags; they aren't waved at drivers; most circuits have no proper means of displaying them; they are displayed where a yellow flag previously was (so to a driver the observation is "no yellow flag now" not "hazard board there now" more than likely).

[blackhands]

OK then lets stick to hazard boards although I thought that this thread started out discussing red and yellow flags. How can someone claim not to know what they may or may not do when a hazard board is displayed - not knowing the rules under which you are competing is a appaling thing to admit. Perhaps if no one sees them its irrelevant though.

[Ian Sowman]

The discussion on red and yellow flags was on whether there was a different thought process in qualifying than in a race.

I wonder if there has ever been any guidance given (I mean actively, here) on the hazard boards. Are they tested as part of an ARDS course for example? Are they ever mentioned in driver briefings (I've been to many and never heard mention of them). As actually they are not at all instructional, there has probably not been a vitally important need; the poster in this thread merely wanted to confirm what he had taken to be the case anyway.

[Flagman]

Hazard Boards are in the Blue Book - every competitor gets a copy when they renew their licence - every driver signs on for the meeting, effectivly declaring that they understand the rules governing the meeting and agreeing to be bound by them....

Ok so they might not see the Hazard Board - but one hopes they are capable of seeing the hazard itself - if not then how did they pass the medical - and again they have signed a declaration to that effect!

[Ian Sowman]

I'm sure they are in the blue book, but practically does that get read cover to cover? Probably not.

On a related point, are all changes to it separately publicised? I can't remember exactly when hazard boards were introduced, but they are relatively recent.

[blue nose]

I only read the grey shaded bits of the blue book well some times,I would like to see two laps for qualifiying, an out lap and a flyer,but what ever flag the marshals put out is for a good reason and we all must obey.