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Old 19 Oct 2011, 07:55 (Ref:2973717)   #51
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To be fair, i think Nissan were'nt too far off the mark with their decision to not run the last round of the 1983 ATCC.

The Bluebird was in the Under 3-litre class, whereas his championship rival, Allan Moffat in the works Mazda, was in the outright class. An U3L car could score more points than a O3L car too... if for instance Moffat won a race, he got 25pts...if Fury came 2nd in that same race, he scored 27pts (very silly...but a good incentive for the smaller class cars)...thats how Fury was leading the series

Fury had finished all the first 7 rounds, with a best finish of 2nd, and a worst finish of 5th. Moffat had one DNF in the first 7 rounds, but had won 4 of them, with two 2nds. Moffat had beaten Fury in every race that they had both finished.

The 1983 ATCC allowed for 1 dropped score over the 8 rounds. Going into the last round, on dropped scores based on the first 7 races, Moffat was 4pts infront of Fury. ie...seeing as Fury hadn't beaten Moffat in a race all season, it didn't look good for Fury.

By skipping the last round, that became Fury's dropped score, which all of a sudden put him 15pts infront of Moffat, and meant Moffat needed 16pts and a 4th place finish to win the title.

So it was a worthwhile tactical effort. Considering also that Nissan were unhappy about the new rule-changes announced to take effect later in the year for the Endurance races, which left them with little times to completely rebuild their cars to the new specs for the Endurance season (they were being moved into the outright class).... that probably also played a part in them skipping the final race (STP-Roadways Racing also skipped the last round due to [and in protest of] the rule changes.... that though is for another thread)
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Old 19 Oct 2011, 08:04 (Ref:2973720)   #52
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To be fair, i think Nissan were'nt too far off the mark with their decision to not run the last round of the 1983 ATCC.

The Bluebird was in the Under 3-litre class, whereas his championship rival, Allan Moffat in the works Mazda, was in the outright class. An U3L car could score more points than a O3L car too... if for instance Moffat won a race, he got 25pts...if Fury came 2nd in that same race, he scored 27pts (very silly...but a good incentive for the smaller class cars)...thats how Fury was leading the series

Fury had finished all the first 7 rounds, with a best finish of 2nd, and a worst finish of 5th. Moffat had one DNF in the first 7 rounds, but had won 4 of them, with two 2nds. Moffat had beaten Fury in every race that they had both finished.

The 1983 ATCC allowed for 1 dropped score over the 8 rounds. Going into the last round, on dropped scores based on the first 7 races, Moffat was 4pts infront of Fury. ie...seeing as Fury hadn't beaten Moffat in a race all season, it didn't look good for Fury.

By skipping the last round, that became Fury's dropped score, which all of a sudden put him 15pts infront of Moffat, and meant Moffat needed 16pts and a 4th place finish to win the title.

So it was a worthwhile tactical effort. Considering also that Nissan were unhappy about the new rule-changes announced to take effect later in the year for the Endurance races, which left them with little times to completely rebuild their cars to the new specs for the Endurance season (they were being moved into the outright class).... that probably also played a part in them skipping the final race (STP-Roadways Racing also skipped the last round due to [and in protest of] the rule changes.... that though is for another thread)
I see your point, racer69, but by not even entering the final race the Nissan team handed the decision of the championship directly to rival Allan Moffat. It must have been a very frustating time for Fury not being given a fighting chance.

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Old 20 Oct 2011, 03:13 (Ref:2974098)   #53
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There was nothing wrong with Fury, though?
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Old 20 Oct 2011, 04:19 (Ref:2974115)   #54
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There was nothing wrong with Fury, though?
Not that I can recall either.

The Nissans were still VERY hard on their gear, the engines were not much better than hand grenades, turbo technology was still largely a black art in the early 1980's... especially with that level of boost aboard. So fresh stuff went into them at every event, if not between sessions!

You can kinda get why the works team pulled out, to try and get a better handle on their cars for the enduros.

Its actually quite interesting, Mr Fury was reported recently in several places as having 'retired' from the Nissan Works team at the end of 1989.. when in reality his contract was not renewed... and found safe haven in the GSR Peter Jackson Ford Sierra equipe for 1990... along with a Mitsubishi ARC assault...
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Old 20 Oct 2011, 08:01 (Ref:2974159)   #55
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Its actually quite interesting, Mr Fury was reported recently in several places as having 'retired' from the Nissan Works team at the end of 1989.. when in reality his contract was not renewed... and found safe haven in the GSR Peter Jackson Ford Sierra equipe for 1990... along with a Mitsubishi ARC assault...
And did very well too, winning the first two ARC rounds, and finishing 3rd at the Oran Park ATCC finale in his first start in the Sierra

A shame he sat around all year waiting to drive the second GTR in the enduro's only to be told late that they were only entering one car.... seeing what Colin Bond did in the 1990 season, imagine what Fury could have done over a season in a Sierra based on his Oran Park showing (and winning the Sandown 500 the month after with Glenn)
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Old 21 Oct 2011, 23:22 (Ref:2974980)   #56
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I have a sketchy memory of watching '90 Oran Park. Anyway, because I started getting into motorsport when he was just about gone, I can say that, despite not having a ATCC/Bathurst title or the "legend" profile/status like some others, George Fury belongs in that top group and would be taken a seriously as any other?

Also, speaking of George, I haven't noticed but, is there a "Where are they now/What happened to" thread here? Not just George, but any random driver who has, seemingly, disappeared. Also, not only just the bigger names but drivers with a lower profile/obscure can be included.

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Old 21 Oct 2011, 23:25 (Ref:2974981)   #57
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And did very well too, winning the first two ARC rounds, and finishing 3rd at the Oran Park ATCC finale in his first start in the Sierra

A shame he sat around all year waiting to drive the second GTR in the enduro's only to be told late that they were only entering one car.... seeing what Colin Bond did in the 1990 season, imagine what Fury could have done over a season in a Sierra based on his Oran Park showing (and winning the Sandown 500 the month after with Glenn)
I never understood why Mr Fury didnt keep the GSR seat for 1991 & 1992...

From all you see of his races live and in person, on #7, and now even on You Tube, I think Farmer George was very good.. he knew what he wanted from a car, and could extract mega speed from it. Did a good job alongside Mr Crichton in the JPS 635 back at Bathurst 1985 too.. considering it was very much the 'B' car...
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Old 26 Oct 2011, 15:26 (Ref:2977188)   #58
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Can anyone confirm Gary Wilmington's blinder of a start at the Pepsi 300 at Oran Park? As mentioned above, he qualified 9th, but judged the start beatifully and IIRC was 3rd by the first corner.
From memory i think it was the 85 Pepsi 300.

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Old 26 Oct 2011, 16:12 (Ref:2977211)   #59
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From memory i think it was the 85 Pepsi 300.
Sorry, 85 Pepsi 250
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Old 4 Nov 2011, 22:09 (Ref:2981670)   #60
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1986 Australian Touring Car Championship
Round 6 - Surfers Paradise, QLD (18/5/1986)


Circuit Length: 3.2 km
Race Distance: 25 laps
Weather: Sunny

Although the results show a pole followed by a lights-to-flag victory for Peter Brock, it wasn't quite that easy. Brock made a dreadful start and found himself holding Francevic for fourth into turn one, behind Fury, Seton and Crosby. Crosby had a run on Seton heading down to Kelly-Springfield, while Brock closed on the pair of them. Crosby nosed the Systime car inside the Skyline, while Brock dove below both to make it three-wide. It couldn't work... Brock clattered into Crosby, sending both Croz and Seton into the barriers. Up front, Fury looked into his mirrors expecting to see Seton, saw Brock, and speared off! Brock didn't need to be asked twice, and blitzed off into the distance. It would be the last ATCC race victory for a Commodore until 1992. Fury would rejoin in 12th, working his way back up to fourth by the finish, while championship rival Francevic extended his lead with a second.

PositionNumberEntrantDriverCarClassRace Time/LapsRetirement CauseFastest TimeQualifying TimeGrid Position
105Mobil Holden Dealer TeamPeter BrockHolden Commodore VKC32m19.6s 1m16.6s1m15.1s1
24Volvo Dealer TeamRobbie FrancevicVolvo 240TB25 laps 1m17.0s1m17.0s6
31JPS Team BMWJim RichardsBMW 635CSiC25 laps 1m17.2s1m16.1s4
430Peter Jackson Nissan RacingGeorge FuryNissan Skyline DR-30B25 laps 1m17.4s1m15.3s2
57 Charlie O'BrienBMW 635CSiC25 laps 1m18.0s1m17.0s8
625JPS Team BMWTony LonghurstBMW 325iB25 laps 1m18.2s1m17.9s13
72 Graeme BaileyHolden Commodore VKC25 laps 1m18.6s1m16.9s7
822 Gregg HansfordBMW 635CSiC25 laps 1m18.3s1m17.8s12
910Volvo Dealer TeamJohn BoweVolvo 240TB25 laps 1m19.2s1m17.1s9
1017Palmer Tube MillsDick JohnsonFord MustangC25 laps 1m18.4s1m17.4s10
11  David OxtonFord Sierra XR4TiC24 laps 1m18.6s1m17.4s11
1227Dulux Auto ColourAlf GrantHolden Commodore VKC24 laps 1m20.6s1m19.2s18
1315Peter Jackson Nissan RacingGlenn SetonNissan Skyline DR-30B23 laps 1m17.3s1m15.9s3
1455Motorsport PacificAndrew BagnallFord Escort RS1600iA23 laps 1m25.0s1m25.2s21
DNF77 Peter WilliamsonToyota SupraB   1m19.2s17
DNF  Graham LustyHolden Commodore VKC   1m21.8s19
DNF  RussellHolden Commodore VKC   1m22.9s20
DNF6 Graeme CrosbyHolden Commodore VKC2 lapsaccident damage 1m16.2s5
DNF50 John DonnellyRover VitesseC1 laplost wheel 1m35.8s22
Has the John Donnelly of Queensland, Australia any connection to a 1967 Australian Formula 3 driver in Europe by the name of Wal Donnelly? : http://www.formula2.net/F367_E13.htm

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Old 1 Feb 2012, 05:17 (Ref:3019695)   #61
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Has the John Donnelly of Queensland, Australia any connection to a 1967 Australian Formula 3 driver in Europe by the name of Wal Donnelly? : http://www.formula2.net/F367_E13.htm

Jesper
Hi Jesper,

I am John's son and can confirm there is no connection to Wal Donnelly.

FYI, the race 1986 Surfers Paradise ATCC Round was the first time our Rover Vitesse had turned a wheel in anger. Unfortunately there was a manufactuing fault in the front struts and the broken strut broke the right front wheel on lap 2 coming into the left hander under Qantas Hill.

Cheers,
Chris Donnelly.

Last edited by FalconEL; 1 Feb 2012 at 05:29. Reason: Correction.
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Old 1 Feb 2012, 05:28 (Ref:3019696)   #62
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BP Plus 300
1986 Australian Endurance Championship
Round 2 - Surfers Paradise, QLD (24/8/1986)


Circuit Length: 3.2 km
Race Distance: 85 laps
Weather: Cloudy

Fury wins comfortably, while Richards drives back through to second after first lap contact mired him back in the field. The Brock/Moffat Commodore kept blistering its rubber, while John Smith hopped in David Morton's ex-TTA Corolla after his works car died on the warm up lap.

PositionNumberEntrantDriver/sCarClassRace Time/LapsRetirement CauseFastest TimeQualifying TimeGrid Position
130Peter Jackson Nissan RacingGeorge Fury / Glenn SetonNissan Skyline DR-30B1h50m53.3s 1m16.7s1m15.2s1
21JPS Team BMWJim RichardsBMW 635CSiC1h51m24.8s 1m16.7s1m16.1s5
317Palmer Tube MillsDick Johnson / Gregg HansfordFord MustangC84 laps  1m16.4s6
425JPS Team BMWTony LonghurstBMW 325iB84 laps  1m16.4s7
56Bob Jane T-MartsGraeme Crosby / Wayne WilkinsonHolden Commodore VKC84 laps  1m15.2s2
605Mobil Holden Dealer TeamPeter Brock / Allan MoffatHolden Commodore VKC84 laps 1m16.4s1m15.9s4
736Everlast Battery ServiceMurray CarterNissan Skyline DR-30B83 laps  1m19.2s18
875Network AlfaColin BondAlfa Romeo GTV6B83 laps  1m18.1s13
927Dulux Auto ColourAlf Grant / John FrenchHolden Commodore VKC81 laps  1m18.2s 
102Chickadee ChickenGraeme BaileyHolden Commodore VKC81 laps  1m16.8s10
1160Giddings Manly Vale NissanJohn Giddings / Bruce StewartNissan GazelleA81 laps  1m21.0s24
1234Lansvale Smash Repairs P/LTrevor AshbyHolden Commodore VKC81 laps  1m19.6s 
1335L. SmerdonLester Smerdon / Geoff RussellHolden Commodore VKC79 laps  1m20.2s 
14  David Morton / John SmithToyota Corolla AE82 HatchA78 laps  1m24.2s 
1558Ratcliff Transport SparesDavid RatcliffToyota Corolla AE86 LiftbackA77 laps  1m24.1s 
164Autopart CentrePeter McLeodHolden Commodore VKC75 laps  1m17.0s11
17  Greg Whitaker / Charlie SeneseToyota Corolla AE86 LiftbackA74 laps  1m25.2s 
DNF  Brad Jones / Akihiko NakayaMitsubishi StarionB turbo 1m16.7s9
   Bruce Anderson / John EnglishFord MustangC    15
DNF  Fred GeisslerHolden Commodore VKC31 laps  1m17.9s12
DNF7 Charlie O'BrienBMW 635CSiC13 lapsrocker arm 1m16.4s8
DNF15Peter Jackson Nissan RacingGary ScottNissan Skyline DR-30B0 lapsdrivetrainNTR1m15.4s3
DNS Toyota Team AustraliaJohn SmithToyota Corolla AE86 CoupeA electrics - warm up lap 1m20.1s20
DNS  John ClintonJaguar XJ-SC   1m25.4s28
DNQ  Troy DunstanBMW 635CSiC driven by O'Brien   
DNQ7 Charlie O'BrienBMW 635CSiC practice crash   
Hi William,

Just discovered this forum and I'm really enjoying going back through the race results!

FYI, my father John Donnelly also competed in this race (the 1986 BP Plus 300) in our Rover Vitesse #50, unfortunately we didn't finish the event. I think from memory we went 19 or 20 laps and it was something very minor that put us out. More new car teething problems!

Cheers,
Chris Donnelly.
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Old 20 Nov 2012, 05:51 (Ref:3168914)   #64
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Rd10 features a cracking battle for third between John Bowe, Graeme Bailey & Jim Richards.

It was the first sign of John Bowe being 'harder to pass than a kidney stone', as he held out the much faster two behind him for pretty much all the race.

It was also perhaps Bailey's finest moment, he mixed it fair and square with the other two (and pulled a great pass on Richards to get 4th back).... its a shame he is unfairly only remembered for 'riding along' with Grice's Bathurst win in 1986, he was a VERY good driver in his own right.


The pick of the races linked above would have to be Rd8 at Lakeside, an absolute ball-tearing battle for the lead from start to finish
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Old 21 Feb 2013, 06:55 (Ref:3208306)   #65
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- There was also supposed to be a "Surfers Paradise 6 Hour" for Group A cars to be held at Easter, with the winner receiving $25,000. The race however only attracted 10 entries (included in the entry were TWR Rovers and the Dick Johnson Mustang)
Does anyone have anymore info on this proposed event? Were the 10 entries ever released?

An early 1986 "Chequered Flag" magazine mentions that Win Percy & Armin Hahne inspected the track on their way home after the 1986 Nissan-Mobil Series, telling questioners they were looking at the track for the Jaguar Sportscar team (as Surfers was penciled in for a WEC round that year), but the magazine indicates that TWR had placed entries for touring car race with Rover's...

In a following "Chequered Flag" edition the event is announced as being called off, and Dick Johnson is particularly scathing of the touring car fraternity in his column for not supporting the event.
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Old 21 Feb 2013, 09:41 (Ref:3208413)   #66
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Does anyone have anymore info on this proposed event? Were the 10 entries ever released?

An early 1986 "Chequered Flag" magazine mentions that Win Percy & Armin Hahne inspected the track on their way home after the 1986 Nissan-Mobil Series, telling questioners they were looking at the track for the Jaguar Sportscar team (as Surfers was penciled in for a WEC round that year), but the magazine indicates that TWR had placed entries for touring car race with Rover's...

In a following "Chequered Flag" edition the event is announced as being called off, and Dick Johnson is particularly scathing of the touring car fraternity in his column for not supporting the event.
When was Easter that year though, March or April?

I can't see how TWR could've sent Vitesses over for that around the start of what was clearly going to be a fraught ETC campaign.

Unless they were going to use older cars?

The other thing to consider was that Brock and Grice (2 guys who might'vew shown interest in the Surfer's event) were also quite probably in Europe.
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Old 21 Feb 2013, 19:09 (Ref:3208707)   #67
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Could the plan have been to use the two 'Whittakers' cars from the Nissan-Mobil 500 series for Surfers? Either hiring some workshop space to re-prepare them locally in NZ, or shipping them home to Kidlington for a freshen-up before sending them back 'down under'?
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Old 22 Feb 2013, 20:27 (Ref:3209254)   #68
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When was Easter that year though, March or April?
Race calendars from that time show the event was scheduled for 30 March.

What happened to the TWR XJS' between Oct'85 (Bathurst, Aus) and Jan'87 (Wellington, NZ)? I assume they went home, but would they have been available to return for the Surfers' race?

Edit: Oops, I've just re-read post #65 and seen that Rovers were entered.
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Old 24 Feb 2013, 13:48 (Ref:3210008)   #69
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.

What happened to the TWR XJS' between Oct'85 (Bathurst, Aus) and Jan'87 (Wellington, NZ)? I assume they went home, but would they have been available to return for the Surfers' race?
Definitely- they ran at Fuji in late '86 before going on to NZ for the Nissan Mobil 500, and I've got photos of one running demo laps at Silverstone sometime in '86

IIRC, didn't TWR have plans for a return to Bathurst in '86 with possibly a mix of XJS and Rover entries, which fell flat because of a lack of financial backing from the Aussie Jaguar/Rover importer?
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Old 24 Feb 2013, 21:00 (Ref:3210149)   #70
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Definitely- they ran at Fuji in late '86 before going on to NZ for the Nissan Mobil 500, and I've got photos of one running demo laps at Silverstone sometime in '86

IIRC, didn't TWR have plans for a return to Bathurst in '86 with possibly a mix of XJS and Rover entries, which fell flat because of a lack of financial backing from the Aussie Jaguar/Rover importer?
There were some pics either in Allan Scott's book or on the FB Group A group of 2x XJS's in plain white being reading for a Bathurst defence in 1986 that never ended up happening, this would've been summertime rather than at the beginning of the year though admittedly.
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Old 1 May 2013, 11:36 (Ref:3241309)   #71
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Sun Pacific 300
1986 Australian Endurance Championship
Round 5 - Calder Park, VIC (19/10/1986)


Circuit Length: 2.4 km
Race Distance: 125 laps
Weather: Sunny with a massive rainstorm

The huge storm knocked out power to the circuit, leaving timekeeping in disarray. The results were questioned by some entrants, but they eventually stood without protest.

PositionNumberEntrantDriver/sCarClassRace Time/LapsRetirement CauseFastest TimeQualifying TimeGrid Position
130Peter Jackson Nissan RacingGeorge Fury / Glenn SetonNissan Skyline DR-30B125 laps  1m00.91s1
205Mobil Holden Dealer TeamPeter BrockHolden Commodore VKC125 laps  1m01.63s3
31JPS Team BMWJim RichardsBMW 635CSiC123 laps  1m02.02s4
415Peter Jackson Nissan RacingGary Scott / Terry ShielNissan Skyline DR-30B123 laps  1m06.48s22
511Enzed Team PerkinsLarry PerkinsHolden Commodore VKC123 laps  1m02.22s6
68Cullen Supa SalvageWarren Cullen / Gary SpragueHolden Commodore VKC122 laps  1m02.84s7
77Bob Jane T-MartsCharlie O'BrienBMW 635CSiC122 laps  1m03.46s9
83Mobil Holden Dealer TeamJohn HarveyHolden Commodore VKC121 laps  1m02.14s5
9*6Bob Jane T-MartsGraeme Crosby / Wayne WilkinsonHolden Commodore VKC121 laps  1m01.25s2
1075Network AlfaColin Bond / Lucio CesarioAlfa Romeo GTV6B119 laps  1m04.89s17
1125JPS Team BMWTony LonghurstBMW 325iB119 laps  1m04.51s16
1214Bob Jane T-MartsJorg van OmmenMercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16B118 laps  1m04.09s14
1324JagpartsGerald Kay / Bryan ThomsonHolden Commodore VKC118 laps  1m04.08s13
1423Lusty Engineering P/LGraham Lusty / Ken LustyHolden Commodore VKC117 laps  1m04.01s11
154Autopart CentrePeter McLeod / Glenn ClarkHolden Commodore VKC116 laps  1m04.04s12
1638Grellis MarketingRay Ellis / Kerry BailyHolden Commodore VKC116 laps  1m07.06s 
1736Everlast Battery ServiceMurray Carter / Bill O'BrienNissan Skyline DR-30B116 laps  1m02.91s8
1860Giddings Manly Vale NissanJohn Giddings / Bruce StewartNissan GazelleA116 laps  1m06.14s18
1961Toyota Team AustraliaDrew PriceToyota Corolla AE86 CoupeA114 laps  1m06.48s21
2016Toyota Team AustraliaJohn SmithToyota Corolla AE86 CoupeA111 laps  1m06.43s20
2113Bob Holden MotorsBob HoldenToyota Corolla AE86 LiftbackA111 laps  1m10.88s 
2241Bob Jane T-MartsDenny HulmeMercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16B110 laps  1m03.78s10
2386GemsparesJohn WhiteIsuzu Gemini ZZA108 laps  1m11.00s 
2471 Graeme HooleyHolden Commodore VKC108 laps  1m06.95s 
25  Denis Horley / Craig HarrisFord Capri 3000SB105 laps  1m11.55s 
26  Paul Trevethan / Tony HunterMitsubishi StarionB92 laps  1m10.52s 
27          
DNF          
DNF          
DNF          
DNF          
DNF          
DNF          
DNF          

* denotes a one minute penalty was incurred for a jumped start
The logbook for my Gemini (John White number 88) has an entry for this race, where did you find John racing as number 86 and entered by Gemspares?
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Old 9 May 2013, 12:18 (Ref:3244803)   #72
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Just watched the race, both Darryl Hendrick (number 86 Gemspares car) and John White (number 88 White electrics car) are racing at this event.
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Old 6 Jan 2014, 15:37 (Ref:3350918)   #73
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IIRC, didn't TWR have plans for a return to Bathurst in '86 with possibly a mix of XJS and Rover entries, which fell flat because of a lack of financial backing from the Aussie Jaguar/Rover importer?
That's the official story that went around. One rumour I heard (unconfirmed) was that Aussie officials, who were at the Spa 24 Hours to talk about Bathurst being a part of the 1987 WTCC, told Walkinshaw that the Aussie scrutineers at Bathurst wouldn't pass his Rovers like the FIA had been doing, and as a result Tom had a re-think and pulled out. Of course, that could have been part of the rumour about the TWR Rovers being not quite legal (never proven).

However, what is known is that TWR were preparing their trio of XJS Jaguars for a defence of their 1985 Bathurst crown. The 5.3 litre V12's were worked on and they found another 50 hp to give around 500 hp. The cars were also tested at Silverstone and with the extra power on tap, their times showed that they would still be at or near the front of that years FIATCC (ETCC). This was scrapped though as JRA didn't come to the party (so it was reported). John Goss was to again be a driver with TWR, but their no-show saw him enter his own hastily prepared, ex-Group C Jaguar.

The Jags with their extra horsepower were the ones that led the start of the InterTEC 500 at Fuji later in 1986, holding off a turbo Starion and Brock's Group A Commodore. They may have been 2 years out of full time racing, but they were still quick enough to hold Brock on Fuji's long front straight. From the YouTube video I've seen, Brock couldn't pass them on the straight even using most of it to slipstream.

I remember reading in Australian Muscle Car Magazine on their 25th anniversary piece on the 1986 Spa 24 Hours, Les Small said that he got onto Shell in England to obtain some of the "special fuel" that Walkinshaw was using in his Rovers. Either Small got the company wrong or it would point to some funny business as the TWR Rovers were sponsored by Bastos (Texaco), not Shell. Small claimed that using Shell's special blend gave the V8 more power and allowed Grice to go faster on the long straight at Hockenhiem than the Group C Commodore's ever did on Conrod (apparently it even spooked Grice how fast the Group A Commodore was going in a straight line). He also claimed that after the cars warm up accident in Germany, he accidentally got some of the fuel in his eyes and was blinded for most of the day (IIRC cars were required to use ordinary unleaded fuel).

The special fuel might explain how TWR (and almost no one else except Andy Rouse) got enough power out of a 3.5 litre V8 to make it competitive in international touring car racing against turbo powered cars and 4.9L V8's. Interesting question though, how does a 3.5L V8 Rover Vitesse lap a circuit such as Monza faster than a 5.3L V12 Jaguar XJS? Allowing for 2 years, Jean-Louis Schlesser's pole time in the TWR Rover at Monza in 1986 was 2.53 seconds faster than Uncle Tom had qualified his Jaguar for the 1984 race (1:58.18 compared to 2:00.71). As they proved at Bathurst, the Jags weren't that bad around the corners or under brakes over a single flying lap, and would have hosed the Rovers on the long straights (Walkinshaw's Jag, still in 1984 spec, qualified 5 seconds faster at Bathurst in 1985 than the Rovers had managed in 1984).

Last edited by Holden308; 6 Jan 2014 at 16:05.
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Old 6 Jan 2014, 17:27 (Ref:3350958)   #74
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Extremely interesting and informative post holden, and, if I may add, somewhat controversial!

Whilst it has long been alleged that TWR had all sorts of tricks up their sleeves in the preparation and delivery of successful Group 1 and Group A programmes in Britain and Europe, it certainly does appear that this wasn't automatically translated into Antiopodean results.

I think the easiest way to answer the lap times discrepancy is that the Rovers were very much on an upwards development curve in 1984 with most of TWR's attention being on the XJS.

In 1985 The Rover was already significantly quicker than it had been in 1984, and again so in 1986 when they reached their peak powers against the incredibly strong Volvo Turbo's and Sierra Ti's.

By 1986 with full support behind the Vitesse and much less so of the Jaguar as its main programmes had been finished, it is logical to suggest that the Rover would have matched or even beaten the Jag around a lap.
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Old 7 Jan 2014, 09:35 (Ref:3351152)   #75
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Sometimes controversy is fun chunterer

I do see what you're saying, and its highly possible that the fully developed Rovers could have matched the Jaguars over a single lap or race distance. In 1984 the V12 Jags were pumping out 450hp, and in 1986 the V8 Rovers were making 340hp, up from 1984's quoted 300hp. Is an extra 40hp over two years, plus other developments in suspension and tyres, enough to make them faster at tracks like Monza?

Of course despite numerous rumours about the legality of the TWR Rovers, including altered body profiles, special racing fuel and engines that were increased in capacity to over 4.0 litres rather than the 3.5 litres they were supposed to be, they were never protested in the ETCC and nothing was ever proven.

Another reason for TWR's no-show at Bathurst in 1986 could have been a simple case of logistics (especially if they planned to bring the Bastos Rovers). There was an ETCC race at Zolder in Belgium just one week before Bathurst, and one at Estoril in Portugal the week after Bathurst. Flying the whole kit and kaboodle out to Australia for a race and then back to Europe in just 2 weeks would have been a nightmare for the team. Then there was added possibility of crash repair. Looking at it from that point of view makes it easy to understand why they didn't make the trip down under. Bathurst was a one off race on the other side of the world and Win Percy was still a big chance to win the FIATCC. Staying in Europe was a no brainer.

It would have been interesting to see how the Jags with their extra power, or indeed the Bastos Rovers, went at Bathurst in 1986. Unfortunately we'll never know, though the Jags form at Fuji in 1986 suggests they would have been on the pace with the Group A Commodores and Gibbo's Nissan's.

When the TWR Jags came to Bathurst in 1985, they expected to be able to at least match Walkinshaw's times in John Goss' Group C XJS from 1984 so times of around 2:16 were predicted. What they found was that without the Group C aero kit, they were forced to go slower on Conrod to avoid getting airborne. Tom reportedly hit 290 km/h in the Group C Jag, but could only get 275 in his Group A version....interestingly the Group C car used a TWR Group A engine suggesting the same might have been possible in 1985. And according to Win Percy they were also forced to take it somewhat easy going over the top of the mountain, though Tom ignored his own instructions about the top of the mountain in Hardies Heroes and got into the 2:18's with a lap that was a joy to watch. With the extra 50hp they had found in testing, 2:16's would have been possible for the Jags in 1986.....comparable to Allan Grice's 2:16.16 to grab provisional pole.
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