DP versus LMP2 for 2014?

[Danathar]

Originally Posted by truebeliever

I am wondering how this merger is really going to work for 2014 with these 2 classes?

As far as I see it, on any given circuit, an LMP2 car is going to be 5 + quicker than a DP. So *IF* DP cars are the Grand-Am babies, then how are they going to ensure they are the quickest?

My thoughts are this on scenarios:

DP: to make them more competitive.
1. you can give them more BHP, out to say 600 +, which wouldn't be too difficult as most of the engines easily can make this.
2. the ancillaries ie: gearboxes, brakes and so on, I imagine would be up to the job of handling any extra power.
3. allow a twin element rear wing for more downforce.
4. allow rear and front underbody venturis for more downforce.
5. increase in fuel tank size to allow longer stints.
6. increase tire size/and or softer compunds for better traction.
7. allow more flexibility on the diff regulations and perhaps 6 speed gearboxes for all, no matter the engine size.
8. lower the weight limit by say 200lbs, if this is possible?

The above *MAY* make a DP 2/3 seconds per lap quicker than present and close the gap to an LMP2.

LMP2: to make them less competitive.
1. reduce the horsepower by air restictors to in the geion of 450/500BHP.
2. steel brakes mandatory, no carbon disks to reduce their braking efficiency.
3. sinle element rear wing and no frontal dive planes, etc, for less downforce.
4. no front or rear underbody venturis for less downforce.
5. decrease fuel tank size to lessen the stint time.
6. decrease tire size/and or harder compunds for worse traction.
7. restict diffs to a non adjustable spec one and gearboxes limited to 5 speed only.
8. increase the weight limit by 200lbs.

The above *MAY* slow a LMP2 car by 2/3 seconds per lap than present and bring them closer parity to a DP, based on the DP changes above.

These are purely what would seem to be common sense solution *IF* Grand-Am/United Sportscar want that their DP cars be the Premier class in 2014. Unless something along these lines happens, and based on the current regs for LMP2, then it's obvious that LMP2 will continue to be much faster than any DP and what would then be the point to run a DP against them?

I believe there is very little chance of Grand-Am allowing LMP2 to be the premier class. So if I was a gambling person, I'd put my money on that come January 1 2014, the smiling and politically correct commenting from Grand-Am regarding this will be over, reality will set in and people from the ALMS corner who continue to believe that they *Won the war* will evaporate as quickly as the performance advantage of an LMP2 car over a DP. Watch to see how quickly and by whatever means, an LMP2 is slowed down to a boat anchor.....

But of course I don't have any real idea of what will happen, only what seems to make logical sense and I'd ceratinly be interested to see others opinion on the matter.

Which one of the proposals on the P2 side would keep from going to LeMans? Any? Didn't they say that they could not change P2 too much without making them unable to go to LeMans.

[Danathar]

Originally Posted by truebeliever

Yep, it should make for an interesting Daytona race....

I'd assume that Grand-Am/favored team have an LMP2 now for testing and so are in a position to do exact back to back tests with both cars?

I'd be shocked if Chip does not have a P2 car in his back pocket "Just in case". The teams with the money will want to win in whatever car is dominant.

[Danathar]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Everybody else is wondering this as well, including the series.

The variance between a LMP2 car and DP car varies depending on the track, and which tires are being used. It appears that in race trim, they are closer than Qualifying at this point. At Road Atlanta it was about three seconds. At Daytona apparently about two seconds.

They have suggested they would like to keep P2 as close to ACO spec as possible, whether they do or not... we shall see. What we know is they will run in Low Downforce spec, like LM.

DP is not a class, LMP2 will not be a class, DW will not be a class... they will all be in the same class, and that class will be the quickest. Even though this has been a late start, I will say that the IMSA crew has been tremendously successful at BoP over the years, so I'm confident they'll sort this out to some satisfaction, though possibly not in a time frame that makes many happy. I would also agree with Mike that this will be an ongoing process, that will take time to make work.

One thing, we've not heard hardly anything about BoP and Delta wing because it's assumed that since it's so new that it will be slower...but...after Road America that tub might just surprise people.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Danathar

that's pretty darn close (2 seconds) between DP and LMPC. I'm not sure that's enough buffer room between the classes.

The problem with BoP is that everything revolves around the speed of GTLM which is staying exactly the same.

I don't think that is a problem. PC has done better this year staying out of the way of GT, probably because of the improved tires. Those tires will be on the PC's next season and I expect the current gap with GT to be maintained. If the Proto class stays at P2 speeds next season uscr will maintain the class gap speed which alms had this season. A big question mark for me is the proto tires. Yes they will be continental, but I'm wondering if they will be upgraded in any way and if the dp tire will be different that the p2 tire.

[Danathar]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

As Mike Hedlund has suggested already (and DHH), Detuning LMP2 makes for a rather large headache. You've got to retain differences in performance between LMP2/DP, LMPC and GT categories. You detune the LMP2, you have to further detune LMPC... and now all the classes are too close to each other. Some minor detuning might work, but not much or you create major issues.

Yup, it all revolves around GTLM.

[Danathar]

Originally Posted by David Land

It has been said and repeated before. P2 cars are full ACO spec, with the exception of spec Conti tires.

DP cars will be equalized to run at P2 pace.

Its not that hard people...

I like ALMS more than GA (but I don't hate GA). That being said I feel pretty bad for the GA car owners. It's going to cost them serious $$$ to bring their DP cars up to spec for only 2 years before a total new car is brought out in 2016.

[Danathar]

Originally Posted by avvelenamento

Don't HPD, oreca and oak pescarolo use a similiar chassis, courage derivated?

I believe that is right!

[Pontlieue]

There are several problems if you slow down the LMP2's

a) Several American teams have expressed interest in running in USCR as well as selected WEC events (Level 5, ESM, 8 Star). So the changes have to be cheap and easy reversible. Also, since the LMP2 cars in WEC, ELMS and Asian LMS have the same rules, I doubt that the LMP2 chassis builders would like to build cars to a different set of rules for USCR.

b) As mentioned before LMP2 cars are not much faster than LMPC cars, so if you slow them down, you also have to slow the LMPC cars down, which will make them almost as slow as the GTLM cars.

I think slowing them down 1-1.5 seconds via different tyres would be ok, but everything beyond that will cause trouble. I'm not against DPs at all, but I think if USCR wants to have DPs in the top class, they have to make the DPs faster, and not the LMP2s slower.

[Danske]

Originally Posted by Danathar

I like ALMS more than GA (but I don't hate GA). That being said I feel pretty bad for the GA car owners. It's going to cost them serious $$$ to bring their DP cars up to spec for only 2 years before a total new car is brought out in 2016.

"Good news, everybody! We bought the ALMS. The DP class is being eliminated and you'll only have to spend six figures to update your cars and spares inventory!"

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Perhaps others are talking about the greenhouse dimensions, and the other dimensions that result in cars logically having a certain look. It's no different in any ruleset.. the LMP1 all have a certain look as well, sure the minor details are different, but overall very similar looks.

Thank you, that's the whole point I am getting at.

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by Danske

"Good news, everybody! We bought the ALMS. The DP class is being eliminated and you'll only have to spend six figures to update your cars and spares inventory!"

They could just have let the DPs not spend any money to upgrade and run them as-is between LMPC and GTE.

[Danathar]

Originally Posted by BullMan

They could just have let the DPs not spend any money to upgrade and run them as-is between LMPC and GTE.

That was what I thought would happen..or slightly different. I was expecting LMPC to go away (they don't race those at LeMans anyway right?) and DP to take their place as their own class with P2 being at the top.

It's hard to know WHY they didn't go that route. One can think up all sorts of political, saving face reasons. Also, LMPC is pretty popular and they wanted to keep that going.

[Danske]

Originally Posted by BullMan

They could just have let the DPs not spend any money to upgrade and run them as-is between LMPC and GTE.

In that case it'd be:
"Good news, everyone! You won't have to ask your sponsors or drivers for as much money because you won't be competing for overall wins anymore!"

[truebeliever]

Originally Posted by Danske

In that case it'd be:
"Good news, everyone! You won't have to ask your sponsors for as much money because you won't be competing for overall wins anymore!"

I would say that the people who believe that DP cars will NOT be the premier class in 2014, perhaps should stop taking whatever it is they are currently taking, as it must be an illegal substance and clearly is hallucinatory.............

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by Danske

In that case it'd be:
"Good news, everyone! You won't have to ask your sponsors or drivers for as much money because you won't be competing for overall wins anymore!"

Works for me.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by BullMan

Works for me.

Therein lies the problem, reality dictates otherwise.








L.P.

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Therein lies the problem, reality dictates otherwise.








L.P.

Well that's your opinion. The DP team owners can either spend the money to make their cars faster or feel free to buy another kind of car.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by BullMan

Well that's your opinion. The DP team owners can either spend the money to make their cars faster or feel free to buy another kind of car.

No, that is the opinion of the series, thereby reality!







L.P.

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

No, that is the opinion of the series, thereby reality!







L.P.

Reality is yet to be seen. At this rate we'll know some time around Sebring.

[Danathar]

Originally Posted by truebeliever

I would say that the people who believe that DP cars will NOT be the premier class in 2014, perhaps should stop taking whatever it is they are currently taking, as it must be an illegal substance and clearly is hallucinatory.............

That's trolling with bait!

Fact of the matter is...

I don't know of many fans that are "excited" with either DP OR LMP2 as prototypes.

There is no real car development in either.

If that's what they will end up being in USCR...I say just dump all prototypes and boost GTLM to DP/P2 lap times.

I'd bet it would not be that hard. I've often wondered what a street Corvette C7 with traction control, ABS, stock HP, carbon brakes, racing tires could do lap time compared to DP, LMP2 and GTLM. (Same pro driver who is familiar with each). I know there was some comparison (older Corvette) in a magazine some time back and if I remember the conclusion was that the street version with racing tires might actually beat the racing version.

[Tim240z]

Originally Posted by Danathar

That's trolling with bait!

Fact of the matter is...

I don't know of many fans that are "excited" with either DP OR LMP2 as prototypes.

There is no real car development in either.

If that's what they will end up being in USCR...I say just dump all prototypes and boost GTLM to DP/P2 lap times.

I'd bet it would not be that hard. I've often wondered what a street Corvette C7 with traction control, ABS, stock HP, carbon brakes, racing tires could do lap time compared to DP, LMP2 and GTLM. (Same pro driver who is familiar with each). I know there was some comparison (older Corvette) in a magazine some time back and if I remember the conclusion was that the street version with racing tires might actually beat the racing version.

Yup... No Toyota/Acura/Porsche/Audi, no care

[jeast]

Originally Posted by Danathar

That's trolling with bait!

Fact of the matter is...

I don't know of many fans that are "excited" with either DP OR LMP2 as prototypes.

There is no real car development in either.

If that's what they will end up being in USCR...I say just dump all prototypes and boost GTLM to DP/P2 lap times.

I'd bet it would not be that hard. I've often wondered what a street Corvette C7 with traction control, ABS, stock HP, carbon brakes, racing tires could do lap time compared to DP, LMP2 and GTLM. (Same pro driver who is familiar with each). I know there was some comparison (older Corvette) in a magazine some time back and if I remember the conclusion was that the street version with racing tires might actually beat the racing version.

As much as I used to had the Idea of all Gt i'm ready for it, it's a lot better than having the joke of a class DP and Lmp2 is going to be. Why take tv time away from the real professional teams for a few teams wanting to race what is basically club racers.

[Danathar]

Originally Posted by jeast

As much as I used to had the Idea of all Gt i'm ready for it, it's a lot better than having the joke of a class DP and Lmp2 is going to be. Why take tv time away from the real professional teams for a few teams wanting to race what is basically club racers.

There was a time in the late 60's when group 4 sportscars (GT) were winning against Group 6 prototypes. Let's get back to where GT cars can win overall. I understand that will never happen against a P1 car, but I'd bet you could take a C7 with what I said earlier and give a P2/DP a run for it's money.

[jeast]

Originally Posted by Danathar

There was a time in the late 60's when group 4 sportscars (GT) were winning against Group 6 prototypes. Let's get back to where GT cars can win overall. I understand that will never happen against a P1 car, but I'd bet you could take a C7 with what I said earlier and give a P2/DP a run for it's money.

I almost thought it might happen last weekend lol.

[HORNDAWG]

Pray tell, why are you talking about an all GT grid in a thread comparing DP to P-2?









L.P.