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Old 17 Jan 2020, 11:14 (Ref:3952066)   #31
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Originally Posted by P38 in workshop View Post
A number of posters appear to be assuming that there is a need for 2 stroke engines to run on a fuel/oil mixture,like an old lawnmower engine.With direct injection and forced induction,it doesn't have to be that way.There is no reason why lubrication can't be done by circulating oil in the way it is done at present and in the huge marine engines I referenced in an earlier post it is done this way.As long as we are using forced induction It just needs a valve ,or port, to open for the entrance of air and the fuel can be injected just before ignition.
I don't think i have seen a reference on this forum to the importance of direct injection to the big gains in thermal efficiency of the last few years.Not so many years ago it was verging on impossible to use compression ratios of more than about 13.5:1 because of detonation.Now that fuel is injected directly the rules limit the engines to 18:1 and this is with forced induction.If the engines under discussion don't have to scrape a set of piston rings up and down one extra time in each combustion cycle,won't there be another big step in efficiency gains?The timing of valve/port openings might be some way from what we are used to and may take a little time to optimise but it would be unwise to dismiss the idea of a move to a different form of engine because of what they used to be like.
To be honest I find this re-visiting old ideas with new technology fascinating. As you say a modern twe-stroke engine should be significantly more efficient than one that takes twice as long to get to another firing stroke. Even if ultimately these engines don't make it into F1 the whole idea has sparked some interest with me.
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Old 17 Jan 2020, 11:26 (Ref:3952069)   #32
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Originally Posted by P38 in workshop View Post
A number of posters appear to be assuming that there is a need for 2 stroke engines to run on a fuel/oil mixture,like an old lawnmower engine.With direct injection and forced induction,it doesn't have to be that way. It would be unwise to dismiss the idea of a move to a different form of engine because of what they used to be like.
Yup, youíre right.
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Old 19 Jan 2020, 01:40 (Ref:3952251)   #33
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I had to laugh when I first saw this thread about 2 smokes in F1. It is funny to witness growing up that every engine I used were two strokes (outboards, dirt bikes, snowmachines and jetskis). The only 4 strokes were automobile s, lawnmowers and generators.

Then 4 stroke technology entered into the snowmobile and motocross market. Everyone thought they were uncompetitive and heavy. They didn't fare very well on the race track at first, but now 4 strokes dominate the scene on the motocross track and certain sled tracks (sans snowcross).

Manufacturers who continue with the two stroke engines (ie BRP using etec technology in their sleds and outboards claim better power to weight ratio. 4 strokes have come down significantly in weight but I prefer using a high performance 4 stroke engine in my various toys vs two stroke. They just aren't as reliable and you still have to add oil into the reservoir which is not cheap. Guys are constantly blowing up new two strokes in their sleds and outboards with the new tech. I have blown several engines myself.

So I just can't imagine a two stroke engine in an F1 car. The general shift was to get away from them and now they want to go back?

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Old 19 Jan 2020, 06:35 (Ref:3952261)   #34
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I had to laugh when I first saw this thread about 2 smokes in F1.

So I just can't imagine a two stroke engine in an F1 car. The general shift was to get away from them and now they want to go back?
What cannot be imagined is a two stroke engine ‘as we remember them’ in an F1 car, not a possible future development where each cylinder has a firing stroke every revolution.....
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Old 19 Jan 2020, 07:45 (Ref:3952263)   #35
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What cannot be imagined is a two stroke engine Ďas we remember themí in an F1 car, not a possible future development where each cylinder has a firing stroke every revolution.....
So, what you're saying Mike is that if this happens, it will be something totally new, and not a load of BSA Bantam engines bolted together then?
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Old 19 Jan 2020, 09:57 (Ref:3952268)   #36
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So, what you're saying Mike is that if this happens, it will be something totally new, and not a load of BSA Bantam engines bolted together then?
You realise most on here wonít even know what a BSA Bantam is!

When you look at some of the extraordinary engine developments over the last 20 years, Iím sure Ďsomething newí could happen. But whether itís needed in F1, Iím not so sure.....
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Old 19 Jan 2020, 10:17 (Ref:3952269)   #37
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In a way it will always be the old technology; It bangs and then reciprocal motions turns into rotational. It could also be viewed as new because they will come up with new ideas to improve on the inherent challenges.

I’m all for it. Let’s play.

Although there is already a series where old technology is making a comeback, Formula E.
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Old 19 Jan 2020, 10:21 (Ref:3952270)   #38
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Then 4 stroke technology entered into the snowmobile and motocross market. Everyone thought they were uncompetitive and heavy. They didn't fare very well on the race track at first, but now 4 strokes dominate the scene on the motocross track and certain sled tracks (sans snowcross).



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Certainly in bike racing the 2-stokes were legislated out on the basis of their pollution. It was nothing to do with competitiveness.

Everyone is talking about old tech, do you really think F1 teams would be sitting still? After all, if 20 years ago you'd been told that Mercedes would be producing (in round figures) 1000bhp from a Toyota Prius you wouldn't have believed it.

I'm sure 2-stroke's best days are in front of us. Small and light, if you can get power from less space and weight that's got to be a win/win.


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Old 19 Jan 2020, 23:18 (Ref:3952370)   #39
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Yeah when the two strokes were on the outs because of emissions, the twos and 4's were racing together and the 4 strokers were hitting the finish line first after a while (at least around here).

Lighter and faster is always better in reference to sleds and motocross bikes especially in situations where you need to man handle them (mountain riding with sleds, motocross tracks).

Don't F1 cars need to be a minimum weight? If the rules changed to make the car shed a substantial amount of weight then a two stroke engine can be an option?

I seem to recall comparing the specs on a Yamaha outboard (let's say 150hp) to the BRP e-tec 150 hp two stroke and Yamaha claimed it to be the same. I personally prefer the Yamahas over the two strokes because they are much quieter, no need to add injection oil all the time and more reliable. We blew up two etecs on our boat.

I can only assume a two stroke would be great in an F1 car when F1 engineers would get their fingers and brains into designing them.

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Old 20 Jan 2020, 14:00 (Ref:3952450)   #40
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What cannot be imagined is a two stroke engine Ďas we remember themí in an F1 car, not a possible future development where each cylinder has a firing stroke every revolution.....

Some of us have grasped this part.What needs to be made clearer,and I don't know how to make it any clearer,is that a 2 stroke does not have to have it's lubrication burned as the mixture of fuel and oil makes it's way through the engine.You can have a lubrication system entirely separate to a fuel system and use the same oil throughout the race.
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Old 20 Jan 2020, 15:08 (Ref:3952461)   #41
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Originally Posted by P38 in workshop View Post
Some of us have grasped this part.What needs to be made clearer,and I don't know how to make it any clearer,is that a Ferrari 4 stroke does not have to have it's lubrication burned as the mixture of fuel and oil makes it's way through the engine.You can have a lubrication system entirely separate to a fuel system and use the same oil throughout the race.
Fixed that
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Old 20 Jan 2020, 16:39 (Ref:3952467)   #42
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Fixed that

I suppose somebody had to.....




On a slightly different note;I have wondered if the current generation of engines would actually run without spark plugs.The compression ratios are high without the boost and with boost,is it likely that the injection of fuel would initiate combustion?
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Old 20 Jan 2020, 16:46 (Ref:3952468)   #43
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Well itís a mystery where F1 should go. I would rather have conventional engines. The hybrid turbos are ok, but it would be fine without them
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Old 20 Jan 2020, 18:23 (Ref:3952476)   #44
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Originally Posted by P38 in workshop View Post
Some of us have grasped this part.What needs to be made clearer,and I don't know how to make it any clearer,is that a 2 stroke does not have to have it's lubrication burned as the mixture of fuel and oil makes it's way through the engine.You can have a lubrication system entirely separate to a fuel system and use the same oil throughout the race.
I agree. If anyone is curious how they handle lubrication see the article below:

http://achatespower.com/wp-content/u...19-01-0068.pdf

Basically this is not a classic old-school two stroke that pulls the air/fuel/oil mixture into and through the crankcase. It uses direct fuel injection with I believe no added oil in the fuel. The crankcase is sealed like a regular four stroke. Oil control rings are not in the classic location just below the compression rings, but instead are further down on the piston. This is to prevent/reduce the amount of oil that makes its way into the two stroke ports. Oil is scraped off the walls before the port. The oil control rings don't overlap the ports. They also use special hone patterns in the cylinder walls (I assume to increase oil retention in the areas above the oil control ring). According to the article, they are getting similar oil consumption levels as classic four stroke designs, but with better efficiency.

The technology looks interesting and probably has a home somewhere, but so far I am not convinced it should be used in F1.

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Old 21 Jan 2020, 07:48 (Ref:3952533)   #45
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I watched an interesting Royal Automobile Club Talk Show interview with Gordon Murray om youtube at the weekend. He mentioned that they were exploring 2 stroke engines years ago...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkmS7FbApVk
It's an interesting 1 hour 16 minutes, so make sure you have a comfortable seat.
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