Far Eastern GPs - yay or nay?

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

more than motorsport tradition that is the main issue for me. while these countries may have economies growing at much faster rates then our own they are still woefully behind in terms of income equality. add the difficulty and costs of freely moving within those countries and its not surprising that they have difficulties in filling up venues.

Yes, the income equality and the fact that by hosting some of these events, while it may attract some people into the sport, you'll create many people who believe it is just elitism and the leaders trying to hide the desperate state that the country is in.

The general lack of money of people in most developing nations means that most cannot afford to attend races frequently, yet alone compete! Countries should have to prove themselves to have interest and a good scene as well as an adequate economy before a GP is hosted. It's these reasons that I don't like Russia, the gangster state, being given a GP and the Winter Olympics, and a corrupt nation buying the football World Cup in 2022.

[garcon]

Skimming through this thread, anyone would think far eastern GPs were a new thing.

[Moneyseeker]

The only problem is that the new venues will largely only survive whist the government in power is prepared to keep writing the cheques, there is no commercial viability to them and no audience base to support them.

This is my main issue with them, they have spent too much money on the venues that will be barely used and paid an unsustainable fee to FOM to host the race.

To me it seems such a waste, on many levels.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

more than motorsport tradition that is the main issue for me. while these countries may have economies growing at much faster rates then our own they are still woefully behind in terms of income equality. add the difficulty and costs of freely moving within those countries and its not surprising that they have difficulties in filling up venues.

The Chinese GP is just outside Shanghai, which has a huge middle class and is easily accessible, yet there are empty stands and it continues to make a loss. The Turkish GP was just outside Istanbul, again easy to get to and a prosperous middle class but no one went to it. Yeongam isn't exactly in the middle of nowhere, the city itself is less than 20 miles away and the port of Mokpo is just across the river, so there's a sizable population, yet there were empty stands. I just don't think these countries are interested motorsport, hence there's no grass roots motorports in the first place.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The Chinese GP is just outside Shanghai, which has a huge middle class and is easily accessible, yet there are empty stands and it continues to make a loss. The Turkish GP was just outside Istanbul, again easy to get to and a prosperous middle class but no one went to it. Yeongam isn't exactly in the middle of nowhere, the city itself is less than 20 miles away and the port of Mokpo is just across the river, so there's a sizable population, yet there were empty stands. I just don't think these countries are interested motorsport, hence there's no grass roots motorports in the first place.

its not that i discount the importance of grass roots events its just that i question the connection between people attending/supporting local events translating directly into a willingness to spend a lot more money to attend an F1 event particularly if they already have a readily available and cheaper alternative. no doubt there is overlap i just dont know the extent of it.

fair points though about the growth and size of the middle class in those other countries. i will give that aspect more though but i would have to think that being a member of the middle class in China is not the same (in terms of amount of disposable income or household earnings) as it is in a western nation and i doubt ticket prices reflect that reality.

but maybe im making your point for you...i mean afterall if im saying that F1 is too expensive for the average joe then certainly having a pre existing interest in the sport means you are more likely to fork over that larger sum of money when asked for it.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

its not that i discount the importance of grass roots events its just that i question the connection between people attending/supporting local events translating directly into a willingness to spend a lot more money to attend an F1 event particularly if they already have a readily available and cheaper alternative. no doubt there is overlap i just dont know the extent of it.

fair points though about the growth and size of the middle class in those other countries. i will give that aspect more though but i would have to think that being a member of the middle class in China is not the same (in terms of amount of disposable income or household earnings) as it is in a western nation and i doubt ticket prices reflect that reality.

but maybe im making your point for you...i mean afterall if im saying that F1 is too expensive for the average joe then certainly having a pre existing interest in the sport means you are more likely to fork over that larger sum of money when asked for it.

You are sort of making my point or me and reversely, if you have no interest in the first place why would you fork out a large sum of money on something you know little or nothing about? I just looked at ticket prices for next years British GP and the cheapest seats start at £190 on National Straight and the most expensive are Club Silverstone at Becketts going for £450.

[ss_collins]

Woo, International Development essay over. Btw, Nigeria is one of the worst countries on Earth. I'm taking that from a friend who came from Nigeria, so I'll believe him.

Fine. I'm also from there and I disagree. Its got huge potential when I comes to motor racing.


To clarify I think new countries should start at the grassroots

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Fine. I'm also from there and I disagree. Its got huge potential when I comes to motor racing.


To clarify I think new countries should start at the grassroots

Is there any grass roots motorsport in Nigeria?

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Fine. I'm also from there and I disagree. Its got huge potential when I comes to motor racing.


To clarify I think new countries should start at the grassroots

If you look at how the pitch process for Olympics is held, countries have to convince the IOC that the event is deliverable, how it will impact on youth sports, employment, schools programmes,how they generate the spectators and legacy of venues after the event, etc.

If only some of these attributes were applied by FOM to F1 instead of chasing the dollar to the highest bidder, the legacy of F1 could be developing skills, engineering, academies, driver talent, etc..things that would last and potentially grow.

Instead of which we see hundreds of millions for dollars spent on a venue that FOM and everyone else knows is going to gather dust for 12 months until they hold another GP, they can't afford to put on...

the legacy of F1 in new countries could be so much better, IMO.

[Beetle]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

If you look at how the pitch process for Olympics is held, countries have to convince the IOC that the event is deliverable, how it will impact on youth sports, employment, schools programmes,how they generate the spectators and legacy of venues after the event, etc.

If only some of these attributes were applied by FOM to F1 instead of chasing the dollar to the highest bidder, the legacy of F1 could be developing skills, engineering, academies, driver talent, etc..things that would last and potentially grow.

Instead of which we see hundreds of millions for dollars spent on a venue that FOM and everyone else knows is going to gather dust for 12 months until they hold another GP, they can't afford to put on...

the legacy of F1 in new countries could be so much better, IMO.

Finally, we have a breakthrough!

I happen to follow the Olympics extremely carefully and seriously. To give you an idea, I was the first person to update the Wikipedia page on the location of the 2020 Olympic Games. Aside from my passion for the Games, I totally agree with you. When picking new GPs (and perhaps when discarding old ones), we should figure out what went wrong. Perhaps we should invest more in the communities, cities, and nations in which are putting our racing in, and design our motor racing circuits like Olympic Parks, with stunning architecture, larger overall area, and more money invested. I guess I'm just repeating what someone else has said in a slightly different way; don't put a Grand Prix out in the middle of some squalid suburb (New Delhi) or sleepy industrial port away from any major activity (Yeongam).

Personally I think GPs would be a far bigger success in many places around the world if it was visible just outside your office window in your city's CBD. I.e., tear down old Olympic Parks or old World Expo fairgrounds and build a sparkling new facility, or widen the boulevards and run a top-notch street race.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Beetle

Finally, we have a breakthrough!

I happen to follow the Olympics extremely carefully and seriously. To give you an idea, I was the first person to update the Wikipedia page on the location of the 2020 Olympic Games. Aside from my passion for the Games, I totally agree with you. When picking new GPs (and perhaps when discarding old ones), we should figure out what went wrong. Perhaps we should invest more in the communities, cities, and nations in which are putting our racing in, and design our motor racing circuits like Olympic Parks, with stunning architecture, larger overall area, and more money invested. I guess I'm just repeating what someone else has said in a slightly different way; don't put a Grand Prix out in the middle of some squalid suburb (New Delhi) or sleepy industrial port away from any major activity (Yeongam).

Personally I think GPs would be a far bigger success in many places around the world if it was visible just outside your office window in your city's CBD. I.e., tear down old Olympic Parks or old World Expo fairgrounds and build a sparkling new facility, or widen the boulevards and run a top-notch street race.

You're being sarcastic, aren't you? Not wanting to come across as Eurocentric but the majority of European tracks are no where near a major city.

[Paradise City]

Well, not adjusting admission fees to local wage levels just means you are not in the game of marketing the GP to a new market. Pricing is marketing 101, it's not just an obscure part of the marketing mix.

It tells me the politicians are availing of an opportunity to hand out big contracts to their pals in the construction industry. The actual GP will take care of itself kind of attitude.

It's a generalisation but it is the case with some of these new markets. Korea and India being at the top of the list of suspects.

Some of them might be using a once off Olympic or World Cup model as well and don't have the expertise to promote a world event that reoccurs annually. Both the WC and the Olympics basically promote themselves, you need to do your homework with a GP though.

[Beryl]

That might be the biggest problem with low attendance in China.

China is one of F1's biggest TV markets, up there with Brazil, Italy and Germany. Of course the large population plays a part, but the lower incomes and large rural population balance that some. Still, China has 10+ times the TV ratings of USA with only 4 times the population, so the fans should be there to attract, even from just the Yangtze river delta region. Ticket prices seem like the most obvious problem.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Beryl

That might be the biggest problem with low attendance in China.

China is one of F1's biggest TV markets, up there with Brazil, Italy and Germany. Of course the large population plays a part, but the lower incomes and large rural population balance that some. Still, China has 10+ times the TV ratings of USA with only 4 times the population, so the fans should be there to attract, even from just the Yangtze river delta region. Ticket prices seem like the most obvious problem.

I'm interested to know where you get your Chinese TV viewing figures from.

[JacobP]

Profitable or not, the sponsors and manufacturers want a Chinese GP, point. That's why it's in the calendar. China is the biggest emerging market.

[Beetle]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

You're being sarcastic, aren't you? Not wanting to come across as Eurocentric but the majority of European tracks are no where near a major city.

No, I was not (and am not) being sarcastic! And you are indeed coming across as a bit "Eurocentric", as you say!

Have a look at the 2013 calendar. Catalunya is the first European race, and the track is only 33.2 km away from central Barcelona by the shortest possible road route. The Monaco Grand Prix is obviously a street circuit directly inside a semi-major European city. Silverstone is only a little over an hour away from Birmingham, taking the M1 and M6, the shortest road route. Cologne is only a few minutes further to Nurburgring than Birmingham is to Silverstone, and the shortest road route from central Budapest to the Hungaroring is only 21.4 km. Monza is only 17 km outside of Milan CBD. Only Spa is truly out in the middle of nowhere, and they nearly lost their GP (not that I'm advocating that, but for the sake of the argument...).

Really, it isn't so different with Asia - Yeongam is truly out in the middle of nowhere (if you call Mokpo a major city you're insane) and Buddh is a fair ways outside of central Delhi. Even Shanghai is a bit of a drive from Pudong, where I suppose most of the drivers stay. And Suzuka is over an hour out from central Nagoya.

I don't see much of a difference at all between the two continents, to be frank. Perhaps I over-researched.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by JacobP

Profitable or not, the sponsors and manufacturers want a Chinese GP, point. That's why it's in the calendar. China is the biggest emerging market.

Interestingly, when the Chinese GP was first announced, every sponsor broker and marketing man from the teams tore over there, some even opened offices, ready to sit back and soak up all the sponsorship cash that would come there way from Chinese businesses. How many have emerged - aigo at McLaren is the only one that immediately comes to mind....

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Beetle

No, I was not (and am not) being sarcastic! And you are indeed coming across as a bit "Eurocentric", as you say!

Have a look at the 2013 calendar. Catalunya is the first European race, and the track is only 33.2 km away from central Barcelona by the shortest possible road route. The Monaco Grand Prix is obviously a street circuit directly inside a semi-major European city. Silverstone is only a little over an hour away from Birmingham, taking the M1 and M6, the shortest road route. Cologne is only a few minutes further to Nurburgring than Birmingham is to Silverstone, and the shortest road route from central Budapest to the Hungaroring is only 21.4 km. Monza is only 17 km outside of Milan CBD. Only Spa is truly out in the middle of nowhere, and they nearly lost their GP (not that I'm advocating that, but for the sake of the argument...).

Really, it isn't so different with Asia - Yeongam is truly out in the middle of nowhere (if you call Mokpo a major city you're insane) and Buddh is a fair ways outside of central Delhi. Even Shanghai is a bit of a drive from Pudong, where I suppose most of the drivers stay. And Suzuka is over an hour out from central Nagoya.

I don't see much of a difference at all between the two continents, to be frank. Perhaps I over-researched.

Well living in Europe, it's going to rub off on you a tad. , especially if you've been to a number of European GPs.

Having looked at Google Earth I would say the Hungaroring and Monza were the exceptions. Next year the German GP goes back to Hockenheim and the Austrian GP makes a return, neither of which is near a major city. If the French GP were ever to return and I hope it does, Magny-Cours is in the middle of nowhere.

The main problem with an Olympic style park is where are you going to build it? If it's going to be outside your office window, a lot of nearby buildings will have to be demolished, unless there's a suitable inner city brown field site and what are you going to do with venue in the off season? At least with a real Olympic park like Stratford it can be used by Premier League football team.

[Beryl]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I'm interested to know where you get your Chinese TV viewing figures from.

There used to be a PDF available with a good selection of F1 TV numbers, but I can't seem to find it anymore. I guess the best sources now are the news articles published after every season.

I guess my numbers are a bit out of date. China was the largest F1 TV market in 2008 with 119 million viewers.
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...e-grew-in-2008

Since then it has declined badly and fallen back behind Brazil, but at 49 million last season it was still #2 (I think, it's not explicitly stated, but the biggest European markets and Japan are usually in the 30-40 million range) and 5 times larger than the US.
http://www.theguardian.com/media/201...formula-one-tv

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

I think Grand Prix's should go to countries that would make a larger effort than finding the funds to pay the cheques to fill Bernie's pockets. Formula 1 is an expensive sport and undergoing a decline in general interest. Do the empty stands in Korea, or instances like the 2012 Bahrain Grand Prix help regain popularity? No. Formula 1 needs to go to countries where there would be a large fan base, allow the average fan to be able to see the race first hand, and have smooth, world class organisation from all involved. The country should also have to have either a driver racing in F1 or a good local motorsports scene. This requires the country to have a stable and large economy, a stable government, and enough wealth in your average bloke for them to be able to afford a £100 ticket to enter with that having a very small impact (if any) on his general earnings. Countries with an elite rich organisation, on the whole, shouldn't be allowed a Grand Prix, unless the motorsport interest there is large enough (and the ticket price to be low enough) to allow the fans who aren't in that elite group to enter.

With the 2014 F1 calendar in mind, the countries whose places are under attack are as follows:

Malaysia
Abu Dhabi
Mexico
Brazil

and the countries who'd lose their GPs:

Bahrain
China
South Korea
Russia

And I'd be seriously considering losing one of the USA venues here...

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by Beetle

No, I was not (and am not) being sarcastic! And you are indeed coming across as a bit "Eurocentric", as you say!

Have a look at the 2013 calendar. Catalunya is the first European race, and the track is only 33.2 km away from central Barcelona by the shortest possible road route. The Monaco Grand Prix is obviously a street circuit directly inside a semi-major European city. Silverstone is only a little over an hour away from Birmingham, taking the M1 and M6, the shortest road route. Cologne is only a few minutes further to Nurburgring than Birmingham is to Silverstone, and the shortest road route from central Budapest to the Hungaroring is only 21.4 km. Monza is only 17 km outside of Milan CBD. Only Spa is truly out in the middle of nowhere, and they nearly lost their GP (not that I'm advocating that, but for the sake of the argument...).

Really, it isn't so different with Asia - Yeongam is truly out in the middle of nowhere (if you call Mokpo a major city you're insane) and Buddh is a fair ways outside of central Delhi. Even Shanghai is a bit of a drive from Pudong, where I suppose most of the drivers stay. And Suzuka is over an hour out from central Nagoya.

I don't see much of a difference at all between the two continents, to be frank. Perhaps I over-researched.

People in Europe would be bothered to travel 33 miles to see a Grand Prix. And in Southern England and Southern France, little settlements are quite often more wealthy than the big business cities. For example, Sandbanks in Dorset...

[JacobP]

Biscuit, what a bunch of socialist and elitist non-sense. By this "standard", F1 shouldn't be racing anywhere but in Europe in North America? China is the world's biggest car producer and a market. Brazil, India, and Russia are some of the biggest and fastest growing. (Ever heard of BRICs?). It seems ridiculous to say that F1 should not go to market where millions of people can afford an F1 ticket, but not an average farm worker. So what? Should people who can afford the ticket be punished for this? If F1 wants to grow fan base, it should certainly go to new places, places where perhaps there aren't enough fans right now. And most of below does not make any sense to me.

Abu Dhabi - One of the biggest spenders in motorsports and the creator of the Ferrari world theme park. I just don't see this GP being in danger.

Mexico - a growing fan base due to Gutierrez and Perez. Huge market. Huge emerging economy. More than enough people to afford the ticket prices if there is any interest.

Brazil - Are you joking? Same as Mexico, but with a fanatical fan base, and a long history of F1 driver participation. Advanced manufacturing economy that builds anything from jet planes to cars.

China - Great racing in the last few years. World's biggest manufacturer and market. More than enough people who can afford tickets. Sponsors want F1 to stay there. Chinese have a strong drive to succeed in sports, and have many sponsors. I think it's a matter of time before some of Chinese will try to get into F1 racing too.

Russia - Another BRIC. Big market and a producer of cars. Decent fan base even though no GP ever. Urban population fairly affluent. Anyone and their dog travels to Egypt, Turkey, etc (when there are no local wars there) to spend a summer vacation. What is $100-200 to most of them? Government is probably writing cheques for now. Growing local motorsport scene with their national touring, rally, junior formula, and whatnot racing. Russians now regularly drive in Le Mans and WRC, and Petrov was in F1 just last year.

USA - Worlds biggest GDP and a huge market. If it wasn't for the greed of the F1 organizers, F1 would still be racing at Long Beach and Watking Glen. But they kept asking for more and more money, until those popular events close, and the USA GP had become a joke of a long succession of unpopular and ineptly organized GPs in streets of Dallas, Phoenix, and Las Vegas. Indy was _very_ popular event until Bernie asked too much money again.

Bahrain - Racing in the middle of huge internal political strife is very controversial, but something is telling me that they pay Bernie well enough that he want to overlook that. On TV it looks like one of the most beautiful venues. I wish it says as long as they don't have civil wars.

Korea - Those who can't afford it, will eventually lose their F1 race. Which is unfortunate. The race track is very challenging, for drivers and cars.

The best criteria for having the GP is set by the free market. Those who can afford a GP, have it. Those who don't, lose it. It always has been like that and will continue this way. Now, can we set the political agendas aside, and talk about racing?

[Paradise City]

Eccelstone wants to see a country project a half decent image, he wants a government that can at least half maintain social peace and to seal the deal, he wants big cash.

I dunno. I don't see that equation ever changing. If F1 erodes in popularity in some post-Eccelstone dystopia maybe the 'big cash' equation will be tweaked but other than that....

I don't think these guys spend too many sleepless all-nighters down at the UN anguishing over development league tables, democratic indexes or corruption charts let's put it that way.

[Bononi]

That's a good reading so far, good laughs also... looks like the cosmetics are the most important thing here.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JacobP

Biscuit, what a bunch of socialist and elitist non-sense. By this "standard", F1 shouldn't be racing anywhere but in Europe in North America? China is the world's biggest car producer and a market. Brazil, India, and Russia are some of the biggest and fastest growing. (Ever heard of BRICs?). It seems ridiculous to say that F1 should not go to market where millions of people can afford an F1 ticket, but not an average farm worker. So what? Should people who can afford the ticket be punished for this? If F1 wants to grow fan base, it should certainly go to new places, places where perhaps there aren't enough fans right now. And most of below does not make any sense to me.

Abu Dhabi - One of the biggest spenders in motorsports and the creator of the Ferrari world theme park. I just don't see this GP being in danger.

Mexico - a growing fan base due to Gutierrez and Perez. Huge market. Huge emerging economy. More than enough people to afford the ticket prices if there is any interest.

Brazil - Are you joking? Same as Mexico, but with a fanatical fan base, and a long history of F1 driver participation. Advanced manufacturing economy that builds anything from jet planes to cars.

China - Great racing in the last few years. World's biggest manufacturer and market. More than enough people who can afford tickets. Sponsors want F1 to stay there. Chinese have a strong drive to succeed in sports, and have many sponsors. I think it's a matter of time before some of Chinese will try to get into F1 racing too.

Russia - Another BRIC. Big market and a producer of cars. Decent fan base even though no GP ever. Urban population fairly affluent. Anyone and their dog travels to Egypt, Turkey, etc (when there are no local wars there) to spend a summer vacation. What is $100-200 to most of them? Government is probably writing cheques for now. Growing local motorsport scene with their national touring, rally, junior formula, and whatnot racing. Russians now regularly drive in Le Mans and WRC, and Petrov was in F1 just last year.

USA - Worlds biggest GDP and a huge market. If it wasn't for the greed of the F1 organizers, F1 would still be racing at Long Beach and Watking Glen. But they kept asking for more and more money, until those popular events close, and the USA GP had become a joke of a long succession of unpopular and ineptly organized GPs in streets of Dallas, Phoenix, and Las Vegas. Indy was _very_ popular event until Bernie asked too much money again.

Bahrain - Racing in the middle of huge internal political strife is very controversial, but something is telling me that they pay Bernie well enough that he want to overlook that. On TV it looks like one of the most beautiful venues. I wish it says as long as they don't have civil wars.

Korea - Those who can't afford it, will eventually lose their F1 race. Which is unfortunate. The race track is very challenging, for drivers and cars.

The best criteria for having the GP is set by the free market. Those who can afford a GP, have it. Those who don't, lose it. It always has been like that and will continue this way. Now, can we set the political agendas aside, and talk about racing?

I don't quite get how the socialist and the elitist go hand in hand, they are ideologically opposed.

An interesting synopsis though, of the various countries regarding GPs. I don't agree with you on China. The GP has made a loss since it's inception and post season 2008 the organisers considered cancelling it. It wasn't until February 2011 that a new deal was done, after the organisers refused to pay the sanctioning fee but Bernie insisted that from 2011 onwards the F1 season have 20 races and reduced the fee and extended the race until 2017. People may very well be able to afford tickets, however, the reality is there are empty stands and it still continues to make a loss.

As far as I can see it's Bernie who is setting the criteria for hosting GPs, not the freemarket.