The new great grid girl debate

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

........ I imagine it also wasn't absolutely top of the list of things to deal with upon the entering the office on the first Monday morning..........

........... And yet the thing people are most up in arms about appears to be the decision to not hire women to hold some unrequired equipment anymore. ........

Thankyou for reinforcing my point so succinctly.
I agree it can't have been top of the list, yet they've done naff-all else - and then this pops out contemporaneously with the #metoo stuff.
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck....

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

Thankyou for reinforcing my point so succinctly.
I agree it can't have been top of the list, yet they've done naff-all else - and then this pops out contemporaneously with the #metoo stuff.
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck....

What else do you propose they would've accomplished by this point? Serious question?

They've already planned and partially built an online streaming system, revamped the website, and laid out a roadmap for how they're going to deliver the series to viewers in the future. But that's naff all else right? They should've rebuilt the sport from the ground up by at LEAST Friday, yeah? And included some totty to gawk at too.

Editing out my comment about expecting major changes within 12 months doesn't make it disappear. I think some people have some extremely unrealistic expectations on what could actually be achieved, especially in such a short time. But apparently, the biggest issue is we got rid of a pointless position.

[Peter Mallett]

Are you suggesting they needed to do something? If so that's exactly the point. Instead of doing something useful, they jumped on a bandwagon.

Better to have kept shtum and found someone who knew what they were doing. This lot , apart from Brawn, are a bunch of amateurs.

[Akrapovic]

No, I'm suggesting that big things take time, but whilst you're dealing with big things there's no harm in knocking some little things off the list too. No doubt that as new owners, there's a lot of things they want to change - the big one is clearly how F1 deals with its online presence and how it delivers the product to the fans. Unfortunately, that one is going to take years due to development process and contracts that were in place before they arrived.

There is absolutely nothing to stop them from dealing with smaller problems, whilst working on a bigger one. Liberty clearly saw Grid Girls as a problem to deal with (whether or not it is a problem is an opinion of course), so dealt with it. That doesn't mean they aren't doing other things.

So no, I'm not suggesting they "needed to do something". I'm suggesting they've got a lot of things they want done, and this was an easy one to sort pretty quickly whilst other things are being worked on. And I'm suggesting that anyone that thinks you could sort out F1 in 12 months is absolutely deluded. It's not a coincidence that Grid Girls went away at the same time that the Liberty F1 image was rolled out with new music, graphics, logos, branding, websites and TV/Online presence.

I also don't see widespread reporting of sexual assault as a "bandwagon", but each to their own.

[Peter Mallett]

All very marketing and totally, as far as the actual problem goes, useless. You have confirmed my suspicions.

As to the sexual assault reference, are you really aware of what you are saying?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

All very marketing and totally, as far as the actual problem goes, useless. You have confirmed my suspicions.

Liberty clearly thought it was the right thing to do, so did it. Now we're in a position where if anyone does anything that can be seen as good, it must be marketing! So now they're in a lose-lose situation. If they don't do anything, they're "a bunch of amateurs" and if they do something, it's just marketing. This is what happens when someone has clearly made up their mind beforehand - everything they do will be a negative, and/or never enough.

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

As to the sexual assault reference, are you really aware of what you are saying?

I was going to ask the same thing. I didn't bring up the #MeToo movement, or the word bandwagon. Linking #MeToo to a "bandwagon" is pretty insulting, really.

Edit: Again, here's the gist of it - Liberty decided that having women as props to hold signs did not fit with their brand image. As a result, they chose not to hire external contractors to fill the now-redundant role. Apparently, the F1 world has lost it's s**t over this.

[Peter Mallett]

Again all you are saying is "let's do something to get noticed". Typical marketing ploy to cover up for an inability to manage a problem.

There are arguments to cover the #metoo campaign and some are not very palatable. Nonetheless it is an anchor on which a company may wish to attach itself to demonstrate a moral position.

[Mike Harte]

I'll tell you what, but this debate is far more engaging than F1.

With this much excitement, who needs grid girls?

[Akrapovic]

Sorry Peter, but that's unreasonable. You're deliberately pushing them into a corner where if they do nothing they are "amateurs", and if they do something then it demonstrates their "inability to manage a problem". There is now literally nothing they can do. Even rebuilding their delivery platform and addressing how the content is delivered to fans has been completely ignored - that's just marketing.

Now we've even gone as far as making a moral decision is just marketing. So now, no good decision can ever be made without the argument of "you're just doing that to look good", which is, obviously, ridiculous.

We've now gotten "the right thing to do" down to "you're just marketing". I don't really see where the conversation can go from.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I'll tell you what, but this debate is far more engaging than F1.

With this much excitement, who needs grid girls?

I'm not taking part in this until such time as the FIA give the grid girls penalties....... I don't consider it F1-relevant until such time as that happens.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I'll tell you what, but this debate is far more engaging than F1.

With this much excitement, who needs grid girls?

I'll sell you the rights to market it if you want. 50% goes to Peter.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I'm not taking part in this until such time as the FIA give the grid girls penalties....... I don't consider it F1-relevant until such time as that happens.

A Grid Girl Penalty thread?

[Aysedasi]

As good an idea as the FIA have come up with so far.......

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

..... No doubt that as new owners, there's a lot of things they want to change - the big one is clearly how F1 deals with its online presence and how it delivers the product to the fans. ..........

a) - that's two not one
b) no amount of 'online presence' or 'delivery to the fans' is going to fix anything if the product is sh1te.
If you cannot or will not acknowledge that the 'big one' is to make the product exciting to watch then this discussion is pointless.

[RWill2073]

This is silly. A new ownership group takes control. They have 10-20 or more issues they are analyzing, discussing, learning about, putting who they hope are the correct people in place to fix the issues. During this short time, long before they could make any definitive improvements on huge technical issues, an awareness develops in society that was largely ignored or way down the list of what were seen as issues in this major company it took over. As a result of this awareness, a very quick fix and change to an issue that may not have been noticed prior, but is something they feel fits their values that can be implemented without a ton of discussion or technical analyzing is available and won't detract from the rest of the information gathering for the other issues that will for sure be measured over years, not months.

As a result, fans are going crazy pretending this means they are clueless about the other bigger issues, or are mismanaging things because they quickly took care of some low hanging fruit. My mind is melting with this level of discussion...

[AndrewCherry]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

If you cannot or will not acknowledge that the 'big one' is to make the product exciting to watch then this discussion is pointless.

Well, true in general, but not really related to this discussion! Personally I think of this as a proxy discussion for grid girls in general, not just in F1 (which is, as far as genuine racing spectacle goes, usually rubbish).

But we do appear to have reached a point where one side of the argument is saying "yes, but you're only doing that for cynical reasons" and the other is saying "no I'm not, I'm doing this because I believe it's right". Which pretty much means the meaningful part of the argument is over. It's not new, but it is a shame. Personally, I find the tendency of people to instantly look for the hidden motive behind an ostensibly morality-centric campaign massively depressing. It implies a vision of human impetus that's so self serving I'd be quite happy to see humanity wiped from the face of the earth if I believed it.

Oh well. Back to planning a possible Superkart team for 2019. No chance of grid girls over there anyway, you wouldn't be able to see the actual vehicles behind them.

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

a) - that's two not one
b) no amount of 'online presence' or 'delivery to the fans' is going to fix anything if the product is sh1te.
If you cannot or will not acknowledge that the 'big one' is to make the product exciting to watch then this discussion is pointless.

Sigh..... What is your reasoning for thinking that because they addressed an easy fix to a smaller problem, that they don't realize making the product exciting to watch is the biggest and most important problem?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

Sigh..... What is your reasoning for thinking that because they addressed an easy fix to a smaller problem, that they don't realize making the product exciting to watch is the biggest and most important problem?

I suppose Liberty thought dealing with the Grid Girls would be a lot easier, than dealing with the technical problems F1 has, so they went for the Grid Girls first.

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I suppose Liberty thought dealing with the Grid Girls would be a lot easier, than dealing with the technical problems F1 has, so they went for the Grid Girls first.

Or simultaneously. It's not like they can't do more than one thing at a time. But yeah, this was an easy one. One quick pen stroke, sign off on no more grid girls, and reinforce your values as a company. Takes quite a bit more pen strokes to figure out technical regulations to make the racing better.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

Or simultaneously. It's not like they can't do more than one thing at a time. But yeah, this was an easy one. One quick pen stroke, sign off on no more grid girls, and reinforce your values as a company. Takes quite a bit more pen strokes to figure out technical regulations to make the racing better.

Maybe they can't do more than one thing at a time, or they find it difficult to do more than one thing at a time, in the convoluted world of F1?

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Maybe they can't do more than one thing at a time, or they find it difficult to do more than one thing at a time, in the convoluted world of F1?

Wouldn't you think it far more plausible that the people working on the technical issues involved in improving the racing (problem #1) are different members of the organization than the ones signing off on a solution to the grid girl issue?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

Wouldn't you think it far more plausible that the people working on the technical issues involved in improving the racing (problem #1) are different members of the organization than the ones signing off on a solution to the grid girl issue?

The initial decision comes from the top and those at the top may wish to be involved with those different members of the organization, who are working on the various issues, technical or otherwise.

Don't forget, Liberty have only been doing this for one season.

[Akrapovic]

Technical regulations are currently locked and and delt with the FIA. I understand what people are saying about the show but it shows a lack of understanding of how the sport works. They've been in charge a year and people want a complete rewrite of the locked in regulations that they aren't fully in charge of? And proof that they are useless at this comes in the form of not hiring grid girls?

That's madness. Sorry but that's ridiclous. Changes like that don't happen overnight. You know what changes can happen overnight? Not rehiring for redundant positions. Anyone using the technical regulation freeze is looking for excuses to call them out on things.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

Sigh..... What is your reasoning for thinking that because they addressed an easy fix to a smaller problem, that they don't realize making the product exciting to watch is the biggest and most important problem?

not my reasoning at all, I was responding to akra, who seems to disagree with you and I over what the biggest issue is.
Also maybe they botched the 'easy fix' too - as they now have two race organisers wanting to openly defy them.

[Akrapovic]

You're right in that the biggest problem is the quality of the racing, so I certainly misspoke over what the biggest issue is. However, that doesn't really change anything in regards to the moral decision around grid girls, and certainly doesn't change the fact that you don't work on one problem at a time in a linear fashion. This is just deflection from the actual topic.

We're still pushing this idea that they shouldn't make morally correct decisions because they haven't sorted the locked in technical regulations that they have very little control over. That way madness lies.

Liberty don't make a change: amateurs
Liberty make a change: doing it for marketing
Liberty don't reinvent the worlds most complicated sporting and technical regulations within a couple of months of taking control: inability to manage

They're being put in a lose-lose situation by people who have already made up their minds on what they expect Liberty to do.