[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[CTD]

Originally Posted by JAG

Will the WR Peugeot diesel be competitve and aviable customer option?

The WR Diesel (only based on a Peugeot engine, but will be called WR) will be sold to customers.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by JAG

Even though the ACO screwed up the diesel/petrol equivalency, the current regs have kept Audi in the sport, plus attracted Peugeot, Aston Martin, Porsche and Acura into the protoype ranks.

The only people that are happy with the diesel/petrol regs are Pug and Audi .

Dave Richards hasnt stopped complaining , cant say I blame him either , Henri wasnt happy either .

Porsche aint here yet , and Acura as a team has quit already .

Hugh de Chaunac hasnt said much this year , as he now has a finger in each pie !!!

[Spyderman]

Completely agree Badger!
The diesel obsession is and will slowly decimate the LMP1 class.
It is essentially reduced to a two make race.
Although Porsche has not ruled out a LMP1, they are watching the evolution of the rules (especially concerning hybrids), and according to Hartmut Kristen, the LMP1 project is "not currently a priority" .

[JAG]

Originally Posted by The Badger

The only people that are happy with the diesel/petrol regs are Pug and Audi .

Dave Richards hasnt stopped complaining , cant say I blame him either , Henri wasnt happy either .

Porsche aint here yet , and Acura as a team has quit already .

Hugh de Chaunac hasnt said much this year , as he now has a finger in each pie !!!

The last few years will not only go down as a golden era, the foundations have been put in place to retain manufactuers by involving them in the major decision making process, both in terms of the regs and calendar.

In Europe at least, I don't think the sports ever been stronger. I'd include the Group C era in that too, due to the over reliance on customer 956/962's, and lack of high quality national sportscar series.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by The Badger

The only people that are happy with the diesel/petrol regs are Pug and Audi .

Dave Richards hasnt stopped complaining , cant say I blame him either , Henri wasnt happy either .

Porsche aint here yet , and Acura as a team has quit already .

Hugh de Chaunac hasnt said much this year , as he now has a finger in each pie !!!

At least Pug has come along with a full works effort to challange Audi! I am truly not a FAN of either, nor do I hold any of the non diesel efforts in any ill light, as the P-1 contender I was, and am, rooting for (and only other serious works effort IMO) was slapped down by the economy.
Henri was a boutique mfg.
Oreca is also at this point and waiting to see where things suss out.
AMR has yet to put forth an effort of any magnitude yet and is playing politics as usual!
Porsche could have come to P-1 instead of playing the loophole but chose not to.
Maybe when/if somebody actually steps up with a full works petrol effort to compete with the diesels the ACO will pay attention, until then I highly doubt it, or expect it, from/of them.




L.P.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Completely agree Badger!
The diesel obsession is and will slowly decimate the LMP1 class.
It is essentially reduced to a two make race.
Although Porsche has not ruled out a LMP1, they are watching the evolution of the rules (especially concerning hybrids), and according to Hartmut Kristen, the LMP1 project is "not currently a priority" .

As opposed to a one make race with the Audi R8 vs.....................?

Porsche are sat at the head table forming the 2011 LMP and GT regulations.

For years Audi were encouraging manufactuers to take them on, the diesel regulations encouraged Peugeot to come on board. Those diesel battles have raised the profile of the sport and interested other manufactuers, now it's time to hopefully bring them on board with new engine regulations.

[Spyderman]

OK, we have different views (on many things)
You guys are content with things as they are (and so are the ACO...and Peugeot), and that's cool.
Personally , I think we have discussed this to death. The non-diesel fans have made their points quite clear. We haven't changed your minds, and certainly not the minds of the ACO.
There really isn't much point to this discussion.
I can still remember in 2007(?) discussing on these boards how the diesels rules were incredibly lop-sided, and at that time , the diesel brigade said that it was the first year of the rules and the ACO had no comparison but you all swore that the ACO would adjust the rules in 2008...then it was in 2009, then perhaps in 2010. Here we are still discussing this., and although there have been some adjustments, they have really been with the intent of avoiding criticism, rather than a serious attempt to equalize the different fuel powered engines. The ACO very well know what the diesel advantages are, and if they wanted to they would have dealt with the "problem"ages ago. They do not want to. Many don't see a problem. So against such odds, there really isn't much more to discuss on this subject.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

OK, we have different views (on many things)
You guys are content with things as they are (and so are the ACO...and Peugeot), and that's cool. Never said I was content with the way things are!
Personally , I think we have discussed this to death. The non-diesel fans have made their points quite clear. I am a non diesel fan! We haven't changed your minds, and certainly not the minds of the ACO.
There really isn't much point to this discussion.

Until someone actually brings something to the table....





L.P.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Until someone actually brings something to the table....





L.P.

..and we have discussed that too. Many contend that no non-diesel manufacturer (besides AM) is going to seriously contemplate the investment , until the rules are more equally balanced.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

..and we have discussed that too. Many contend that no non-diesel manufacturer (besides AM) is going to seriously contemplate the investment , until the rules are more equally balanced.

And the ACO is not going to piess off the only 2 WORKS programs, on the wing and a prayer fluff of these supposed programs!






L.P.

[Spyderman]

Completely agree! But it is a situation of their own making...and I'm not sure that they (or Peugeot) are particularly depressed about it.

[chernaudi]

Acura brought the ARX-02 to the table, but it was underpowered, even by gasoline LMP1 standards(it probably wouldn't have done crap in the LMS against Pescarolo, AMR, or Oreca except at the Nurburgring), and had too much drag for the power and torque it's engine made.

Maybe if there was a factory gasoline effort that maximized their package with areo, tires, AND power(ie, engine capacity-6 liter NA, 4 liter turbo, or 7 liter GT1 derived engine), but alas, the Acura program was hampered with limited engine power(even against other LMP1s) and a car biased towards the ALMS. The Intersport Lola has shown what a car with an engine could do, and sometimes gave Audi trouble if they got out in front, and would've done Peugeot the same. It also didn't help that as capable as Duncan Dayton and Gil de Ferran were and are, that they were essentially privateer teams, with support from Acura/HPD/Honda Racing, but certainly not full factory efforts.

If a factory team took a car like the ARX-02 and gave it a decent engine, it could've contended with the diesels, but the 4.0 NA V8 wasn't the answer, as we all know now.

[Purist]

The Acura LMP1's biggest issue was the high drag/downforce inherent in the design. The engine had comparable torque to some of the earlier Judds (370ft-lb), and horsepower output that isn't too far off what some of the top teams have (620hp); the current Audi is quoted at 650hp, IIRC. Remember that the Lola Aston uses the DBR9 engine, and that is the reason for its 2009 output of 680hp. The Intersport Lola keeps up because its restrictors have been relaxed to the point where it makes ~800hp from the 4.0-litre, turbo V8 AER.

Hmm, there were two "real" works programs in the 1992 WSC; I wonder how that worked out.

JAG, the Group C era always had at least two marques in serious competition, and often there was a third. Sometimes there were more than that. Regardless of the make of car it is always the privateers that truly bolster the prototype field and make it look worthwhile. And in the case of the 956s/962s, many of those "privateer" cars were quite competitive with the Rothmans Porsches, which is more than can be said for many customer efforts today compared to the factory outfits.

The sportscar world has waned in periods with mandated smaller prototype engines, ever since the sport's rebirth after World War II. There was a lull after 1957 (engines reduced to 3.0-litre max), after 1971 (closure of the 5.0-litre loophole), and after 1990 (effective shut-out of cars not conforming to the 3.5-litre rules). The public may be forced to drive econoboxes in their daily lives, but they want something more and better from their sport, and they'll move on if they don't get it. The most important rule of mass media is, "Give the people what they want!"

As long as the ACO equalize the outright horsepower figures of the diesels and petrol cars, there is no point for a factory petrol effort against Peugeot and Audi at Le Mans. If the horsepower figures match, the diesels automatically have a MASSIVE torque advantage.

Therefore, as things stand, the petrol cars NEED to be allowed to have at least somewhat more horsepower by comparison. They need to be able to attain a higher top-end speed than the diesels, enough higher to make up the deficit pulled out on the first part of the straight. However, for that top-end to be much good, the petrol car needs better braking than the diesel to be able to have a chance to outbrake at the end of the straight. Otherwise, the high top-end forces the petrol car to brake sooner than is necessary for the diesel.

Frankly, they're squeezing the class structure too close together. If the new P2s are as restricted as is claimed, they will give the GT2s fits, and you will have MAJOR problems dealing with that; remember all the P2/GT collisions at Road Atlanta in 2008? On the other hand though, if the P2s are less restricted, they will be too close in pace to the new P1s. And if they reel in GT2, the GT3s and GT4s will then be too fast by comparison, which defeats the point of even having the current GT2 class. The ACO have painted themselves into a box with next year's regulations.

[Spyderman]

That's exactly it Purist!
It's all about the Torque...and the ACO know it!

[cdsvg]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

I can still remember in 2007(?) discussing on these boards how the diesels rules were incredibly lop-sided, and at that time , the diesel brigade said that it was the first year of the rules and the ACO had no comparison but you all swore that the ACO would adjust the rules in 2008...then it was in 2009, then perhaps in 2010. Here we are still discussing this., and although there have been some adjustments, they have really been with the intent of avoiding criticism, rather than a serious attempt to equalize the different fuel powered engines. The ACO very well know what the diesel advantages are, and if they wanted to they would have dealt with the "problem"ages ago. They do not want to. Many don't see a problem. So against such odds, there really isn't much more to discuss on this subject.

There is a fundamental difference between equalizing the cars as they stand, on the track, and equalizing the potential of the two types of powertrain. Some people seem not to understand this.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

If a factory team took a car like the ARX-02 and gave it a decent engine, it could've contended with the diesels, but the 4.0 NA V8 wasn't the answer, as we all know now.

Indeed, it would have been great to see the ARX02 with a proper engine, or with the current 3.4L HPD engine competing with the 2011 P1 field.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by cdsavage

There is a fundamental difference between equalizing the cars as they stand, on the track, and equalizing the potential of the two types of powertrain. Some people seem not to understand this.

No perhaps I don't, but let me tell you what I do understand and predict: There are many commercial and marketing interests that would very much like to maintain the status quo. Until those interests have been fulfilled and wane, (or superseded by others) I don't expect to see a huge change in the current state of affairs.

[JAG]

Hmm, there were two "real" works programs in the 1992 WSC; I wonder how that worked out

JAG, the Group C era always had at least two marques in serious competition, and often there was a third. Sometimes there were more than that. Regardless of the make of car it is always the privateers that truly bolster the prototype field and make it look worthwhile. And in the case of the 956s/962s, many of those "privateer" cars were quite competitive with the Rothmans Porsches, which is more than can be said for many customer efforts today compared to the factory outfits.

You'll not find a bigger Group C fan than myself, but that era was entirely dependant on the 956/962 being competitve. Once the car dropped off the pace in the later turbo years, then wiped out with the 3.5l cars, the series collapased.

IMSA GTP likewise ended because there wasn't a 956/962 alternative, and they allowed turbo cars.

These days we have a number or high quality customer chassis and engine options, the sport has an alternative if manufactuers pull out or fail to provide customer cars.

No perhaps I don't, but let me tell you what I do understand and predict: There are many commercial and marketing interests that would very much like to maintain the status quo. Until those interests have been fulfilled and wane, (or superseded by others) I don't expect to see a huge change in the current state of affairs.

Manufactuers weren't knocking the door down before Peugeot entered, plus if Audi had departed it would have been a disaster.

Audi and Peugeot have lifted the sport to another level, it appears they are interested in actually developing sportscar racing by encouraging innovative regulations and pushing ahead with the ILMC.

It's true to stay non-diesals have struggled to be competitive, but let's be honest, only Acura have developed a P1 with the potential to be a race winner, yet even they compromised on the engine front due to having half an eye on the 2011 regulations.

Likewise, Aston Martin would of course like to win Le Mans, but the revised Lola is a toe in the water effort, a new 2011 chassis/engine would be their first realistic attack. Even so, Aston Martin have benefited by being considered equals of Audi and Peugeot, despite spending a fraction of their budget.

To conclude, the ACO have wised upto the fact it is sometimes beneficial to the sport to give certain technologies a distinct advantage in return for a long term commitment.

Now it is time to encourage other manufactuers into P1, while still retaining Audi and Peugeot.

[Spyderman]

OK, but how are they going to do that?

[Purist]

Unfortunately, JAG, it looks like, in some respects, that the balance has swung the wrong way. In the new regulations, racing turbo diesels can actually be of larger displacement than normally-aspirated racing petrol engines. Currently, this is not the case (currently 5.5L vs. 6.0L, going to 3.7L vs. 3.4L).

And to whoever mentioned it, actually, the ACO does control a technology's potential, because they have the data, and they control the air restrictors.

It's hardly Porsche's fault that they were the only ones, aside from March and Lola early on, to produce customer chasses in any real volume. Nissan only sold a couple of year-old customer cars, to John Paul Jr. and Gianpiero Moretti. There were a few Chevy GTPs sold to private hands, but those Intrepids were only just competitive in factory hands. I don't think privateers ever got their hands on the TWR Jaguars, the Toyotas (Gurney Eagles or otherwise), the Sauber Mercedes, the Mazdas, or the Peugeot 905s.

I kind of suspect, with te likely proximity in speed, that the ALMS will continue some sort of a combined LMP classes with the new rules cars. I also suspect that guys like Intersport and Autocon will be given a year to sort out which new rules engine they should use, if they really want the extra time to do that; they can probably ballast up those Lolas to keep them from running away if they keep their current engines for an extra season.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

OK, but how are they going to do that?

By consulting with manufactuers over the new regulations.

As fans we are in the dark, Porsche were developing the RS Spyder at a time when the idea of a Porsche LMP was laughed away in some quarters.

Who knows what is in the works now.

[höller]

Does anybody know if it`s true that the advantages for the closed LMP1 cars are abolished, concerning air restrictor? Some guy of the Aston Martin company feared it could be the end of the closed LMP1 as nobody would invest something in a concept that bears disadvantages.

Wasn´t the plan that LMP1 should be emtirely equipped with roofs?

It would be a shame in my opinion for two reasons: The closed prototypes in group c mode like the current Peugeot or Lola are probably the best looking racing cars in the world and I like them much. The open LMPs are minging for sure, especially the Audi R15.
The second point ist the safety: Open cars are more dangerous than closed ones. Remember Surtees, remeber Massa. Such accidents could happen in Le Mans too.

So I thinks, as the ACO speaks of safety as the main goal, the closed coupes should at least given a chance to be competitive and the advantage should be kept! Or isn´t this for the purpose of Audi?

[JAG]

I don't believe closed cars have had a restrictor advantage for a season or two, so no change there.

As for coupes competitiveness, the 4 year old 908 is still bang on the pace.

[deggis]

Anything new expected this weekend? The annual press conference...

[JAG]

The manufactuers already have the final regulations, everyone else will see them at the press conference.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by deggis

Anything new expected this weekend? The annual press conference...

Rules, classes etc... not much.



L.P.