Proposed new Historic touring car series.

[ken clarke]

I have been working lately with an organiser to run a new touring car series. Details still secret at present but the series will be for genuine & replica touring cars from 1967 to 1986. Group 5, 67 to 69. Group 1 & 2, 70 to 81. Group A, 82 to 85 inclusive. Cars homologated in 1985 will be allowed to run up to 1986 spec but by ending in Decmber 1985 you exclude Cosworths & M3,s, they are for another day!! Hopefully we can get more genuine than replica.

Cars should be period correct in mechanical specification and be in a period colour scheme, we are not looking for current 'modsaloons'

I feel we are long overdue an Appendix K pre 66 type race series & hopefully with the right support & backing this will happen. It is hoped that if this series is successful the races will be split, Group A, Group 1 Races will be high profile on decent circuits & of a decent length.

Watch this space.

[DAVID PATERSON]

We have a series in Australia for Australian Group C Production Touring Cars from 1973-1984 and FIA Group A Touring cars from 1984-1992.

check out www.groupc.org.au

The series is for genuine cars only. Replicas are not eligible. Due to the value and rarity of genuine cars, their owners don't wish to share the track with replicas. You might find the same over there?

[Al Weyman]

Blimey Ken how many cars are out there, Masters has similar as does CSCC and CTCRC not to mention HSCC.

[jminsh]

Its about time we had a place for proper Group A cars to race

[VIVA GT]

It'd be great to see these 'old' cars out & racing again, I just hope that the owners don't consider them too precious to use the way they are intended to be.
It should find somewhere for all the old SD1's you know about Ken!

[Mike Bell]

Hi Ken, sounds like MR Legends / JD Classics with added earlier cars? Would be good to see Gp5 cars having somewhere to race.

David, I understand the view some owners of genuine period cars may have about 'sharing' with replicas, but don't necessarily agree with them! It suggests that replica drivers have little regard for car values on track. From my experience there are some wealthy owners of original cars with that attitude.....

If driving standards are a concern then that is something organisers need to be in control of. By making entry 'by invitation' they should be able to be selective of cars and drivers.......

[ken clarke]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Blimey Ken how many cars are out there, Masters has similar as does CSCC and CTCRC not to mention HSCC.

No Al you have misunderstood. It is NOT for Modsaloon cars as run by the CTCRC & others. Original blocks, heads, gearboxes body shells etc are a MUST not optional!!!

The Masters series has virtually collapsed mainly due to the fact that they would not persue this route which I have tried to push them towards for the past 2 years.

[Al Weyman]

No Al you have misunderstood. It is NOT for Modsaloon cars as run by the CTCRC & others. Original blocks, heads, gearboxes body shells etc are a MUST not optional!!!

I thought they were, thats what I have always run could be why I am an also ran I guess!!! The only misgivings I have with these type of championships/series is the brakes. I drove Cliff Ryan's American Historic Vintage Assoc. spec Mustang the other week and quite frankly I found the brakes verging on frightening. It also doesnt save money either as we got through two sets of $275 dollar pads! The trouble as I see it is you can tune engines to probably produce many more BHP than they used to in period but the brakes since now non-asbestos if they have to be original spec are probably worse than they were.

[jminsh]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I thought they were, thats what I have always run could be why I am an also ran I guess!!! The only misgivings I have with these type of championships/series is the brakes. I drove Cliff Ryan's American Historic Vintage Assoc. spec Mustang the other week and quite frankly I found the brakes verging on frightening. It also doesnt save money either as we got through two sets of $275 dollar pads! The trouble as I see it is you can tune engines to probably produce many more BHP than they used to in period but the brakes since now non-asbestos if they have to be original spec are probably worse than they were.

??? Not sure on the early stuff but the Group A cars really will have no problem with the correct homologated brakes at any circuit .

[Al Weyman]

I was more referring to Group 1.

[David J Howard]

As a regular Racer in Historic Cars for quite a few years now and a fellow ex Committee member of the CTCRC... like yourself Ken

My opinion is that there would be far too much disparity on that grid.

If I had some genuine 60's App K car there's no way I'd wan't to be on the grid with some replica/genuine whatever 80's Touring car ..A recipe for bent metal.

Drivers that cherish their cars don't like mixed up grids. Surely you recall the problems we used to have ...and still have ..with drivers if we have to amalgamate a race .

There's plenty of homes out there for most cars already not least us at the CTCRC who run with controlled National Championship status rather just yet another "Series"

With Series the organisers can change any regulations they fancy between races If they simply don't like the colour of you race suit,or your car is faster than one of their mates..and it happens a lot believe me !

Good Luck to you Ken and I hope all is well but I wouldn't waste too much of your Sponsors money on this number.

Regards David Howard.

Originally Posted by ken clarke

I have been working lately with an organiser to run a new touring car series. Details still secret at present but the series will be for genuine & replica touring cars from 1967 to 1986. Group 5, 67 to 69. Group 1 & 2, 70 to 81. Group A, 82 to 85 inclusive. Cars homologated in 1985 will be allowed to run up to 1986 spec but by ending in Decmber 1985 you exclude Cosworths & M3,s, they are for another day!! Hopefully we can get more genuine than replica.

Cars should be period correct in mechanical specification and be in a period colour scheme, we are not looking for current 'modsaloons'

I feel we are long overdue an Appendix K pre 66 type race series & hopefully with the right support & backing this will happen. It is hoped that if this series is successful the races will be split, Group A, Group 1 Races will be high profile on decent circuits & of a decent length.

Watch this space.

[Mike Bell]

I thought from Ken's first post that the proposal was for post 1966 cars onwards? Presumably on slicks like Masters and MRL/JDC?

[ken clarke]

Originally Posted by David J Howard

As a regular Racer in Historic Cars for quite a few years now and a fellow ex Committee member of the CTCRC... like yourself Ken

My opinion is that there would be far too much disparity on that grid.

If I had some genuine 60's App K car there's no way I'd wan't to be on the grid with some replica/genuine whatever 80's Touring car ..A recipe for bent metal.

Drivers that cherish their cars don't like mixed up grids. Surely you recall the problems we used to have ...and still have ..with drivers if we have to amalgamate a race .

There's plenty of homes out there for most cars already not least us at the CTCRC who run with controlled National Championship status rather just yet another "Series"

With Series the organisers can change any regulations they fancy between races If they simply don't like the colour of you race suit,or your car is faster than one of their mates..and it happens a lot believe me !

Good Luck to you Ken and I hope all is well but I wouldn't waste too much of your Sponsors money on this number.

Regards David Howard.

Hi David,

I beleive there is a desperate need for a decent high profile series for Genuine /replica original spec touring cars as do all of my customers & many others who have contacted me.

Are you saying that everyone with a non genuine car does not care about their car & would happily sacrifice a wing or door against a genuine car in order to beat them? I have to disagree with you. Most people in my opinion love & cherish their cars, whether or not they are genuine. The guy running a £10,000 racer is running what he can afford, as is the guy running a £100,000 race car running what he can afford. I would not race my genuine Group A Rover or my genuine Rover Tomcat any differently to my Group 1 replica Dolomite Sprint. I find the problem is always the drivers attitude, whether or not the car is genuine. I have seen many incidents caused by expensive genuine car owners because their attitude is; if I damage the car, my mechanic can repair it, conversely the owner/preparer who races/prepares his own car tends to be a little more careful as he knows that any damage must be repaired & paid for by him.

Interest is already good, if you wish not to participate it is your choice. I can assure you that anyone whose driving standards are thought to be suspect will not be welcome whether or not their car is genuine.

The series is for POST 1966 cars on slicks. There is nowhere for them to compete in a decent high profile series at present.

[AntA35]

Originally Posted by ken clarke

Hi David,

I beleive there is a desperate need for a decent high profile series for Genuine /replica original spec touring cars as do all of my customers & many others who have contacted me.

Are you saying that everyone with a non genuine car does not care about their car & would happily sacrifice a wing or door against a genuine car in order to beat them? I have to disagree with you. Most people in my opinion love & cherish their cars, whether or not they are genuine. The guy running a £10,000 racer is running what he can afford, as is the guy running a £100,000 race car running what he can afford. I would not race my genuine Group A Rover or my genuine Rover Tomcat any differently to my Group 1 replica Dolomite Sprint. I find the problem is always the drivers attitude, whether or not the car is genuine. I have seen many incidents caused by expensive genuine car owners because their attitude is; if I damage the car, my mechanic can repair it, conversely the owner/preparer who races/prepares his own car tends to be a little more careful as he knows that any damage must be repaired & paid for by him.

Interest is already good, if you wish not to participate it is your choice. I can assure you that anyone whose driving standards are thought to be suspect will not be welcome whether or not their car is genuine.

The series is for POST 1966 cars on slicks. There is nowhere for them to compete in a decent high profile series at present.

Ken, you know my thoughts on this one and I would be really pleased to see this happen. The main thing is enabling a big enough playground to bring out the cars and the idea of slicks etc makes it all the better. If there are groups of Gp 5, Gp1, Gp 2 and Gp A large enough to start a new series of just those cars then it will at least have served a part purpose. However, all very exciting and I will be there with my Gp1 car!

[JDog]

Ken

It's a great idea.

The response we've had since starting work on a race at the Classic has been nothing short of phenomenal...a lot of Group A car's out there with no where to go.

Will you be bringing your Rover out with us at Silverstone?

Jonny

[ken clarke]

Originally Posted by JDog

Ken

It's a great idea.

The response we've had since starting work on a race at the Classic has been nothing short of phenomenal...a lot of Group A car's out there with no where to go.

Will you be bringing your Rover out with us at Silverstone?

Jonny

Much as I would dearly love to have my Rover rebuilt by Silverstone unfortunately work & money mean it will take me at least 2 years to get the car ready for any sort of track work. I wamt to ensure the car is put back to its original spec & not just 'got running' to be displayed.

[Al Weyman]

Are you allowing dry sumps with the Gp 1 cars if not I think you should concider it if running on slicks!!! Sorry I am not up enough on period Gp 1 regs to know whether they allowed dry sumps or not all I do know is most of the series do not. And just a small gramatic point (I should talk!) but is a 'Genuine Replica' a bit of an oxymoron (Only kidding Ken) I do actually agree with you about guys in replicas at my end of the scale being very careful as well, look at the way I took to the grass and nearly ruined my race avoiding the million pound (reputably) ex Works Cobra in Bernies race when he swerved over on me for all the thanks I got and I still have the reinforced federal bumpers beneath the skin on that car so I can safely say it would have inflicted enourmous damage on it if I had hit the thing lol!

[Mike Bell]

Ken, you are spot on about driver's attitudes. Hope this works as will have a Gp1 Mk2 RS2000 looking for somewhere to play when finished restoration and preparation, as well as the Gp2 Escort of course!

BTW Al, Gp1 cars raced on slicks in period- and without dry sumping. My Gp1 car will be fitted with period homologated bits only- including for brakes, two pot calipers and vented discs on front, drums on back. That's what they managed with in period, so.........

[terence]

Excellent idea Ken,any chance of opening up to Grp 2 as well. Lol.
As far as owners not wanting to share the grid with replicas,are these the owners who just want a high speed demo and dont really want to race!

[ken clarke]

As in period, no dry sumps in Group 1, cars built to homologation papers.

Yes Al it is a bit of an oxymoron but you know what I mean, cars with Alcan or whatever brakes, incorrect blocks, heads, gearboxes, wheel sizes etc will not be welcome.

Terry, Group 2 is already included.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Ken, you are spot on about driver's attitudes. Hope this works as will have a Gp1 Mk2 RS2000 looking for somewhere to play when finished restoration and preparation, as well as the Gp2 Escort of course!

BTW Al, Gp1 cars raced on slicks in period- and without dry sumping. My Gp1 car will be fitted with period homologated bits only- including for brakes, two pot calipers and vented discs on front, drums on back. That's what they managed with in period, so.........

Your car dnt weigh in at about 1500kgs though!

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Your car dnt weigh in at about 1500kgs though!

I hope not!

[Moosehead]

Apologies for my ignorance but would not the slicks of today be a lot stickier than '60's, '70's or even '80's slicks? And hence possibly cause a problem for wet sumped cars?

Sounds a very interesting series though, good luck with it all Ken

[terence]

Originally Posted by ken clarke

As in period, no dry sumps in Group 1, cars built to homologation papers.

Yes Al it is a bit of an oxymoron but you know what I mean, cars with Alcan or whatever brakes, incorrect blocks, heads, gearboxes, wheel sizes etc will not be welcome.

Terry, Group 2 is already included.

Thanks Ken,this is getting very interesting.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Moosehead

Apologies for my ignorance but would not the slicks of today be a lot stickier than '60's, '70's or even '80's slicks? And hence possibly cause a problem for wet sumped cars?

You'll have to ask a tyre supplier that question! I doubt that much difference (plus depends on compound) and if Gp1 cars are restricted to homologated wheel widths they won't be that wide. 'Historic' slicks are as far as I know all crossply as well. Not sure what the 80s GpA cars used though- crossply or radial?