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Old 3 Nov 2017, 14:42 (Ref:3778362)   #2376
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Could it be that the reason the larger players are complaining is because... it may not benefit them as much as it might the smaller fish? And ANY change to the spec (which will happen) will result in some level of additional cost. And given that the specifications seem to be to move to simpler solutions... I take some of the complaints with a grain of salt. Lastly... lots of complaints, what solutions are they offering up on their own?

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Old 3 Nov 2017, 16:17 (Ref:3778375)   #2377
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
Could it be that the reason the larger players are complaining is because... it may not benefit them as much as it might the smaller fish? And ANY change to the spec (which will happen) will result in some level of additional cost. And given that the specifications seem to be to move to simpler solutions... I take some of the complaints with a grain of salt. Lastly... lots of complaints, what solutions are they offering up on their own?

Richard
Renault's suggestion..

"Renault's proposal for six months now has been to keep the current engine but waiving any restriction in terms of fuel quantity, plus moving the fuel flow limitation and also the rev limit," added Abiteboul.


"The great thing about that proposal is you could do that without having to wait until 2021.


"The world is changing quickly; by 2022, a number of car makers will have moved to something that's more electrified than today, so I think the timing to decide now what we want for the period 2021 to 2026 is maybe not appropriate."


https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13...risk-arms-race
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Old 3 Nov 2017, 17:51 (Ref:3778394)   #2378
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It's Possible by 2021 formula-e may have overtaken f1 in terms of interest to Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault and they all may indeed quit
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Old 3 Nov 2017, 17:56 (Ref:3778395)   #2379
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It's Possible by 2021 formula-e may have overtaken f1 in terms of interest to Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault and they all may indeed quit
Would those three manufacturers want to run in a series with a spec chassis?
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Old 3 Nov 2017, 19:26 (Ref:3778400)   #2380
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Would those three manufacturers want to run in a series with a spec chassis?
If all three opted to enter, could their influence open up the chassis regulations?

They all also are very active in the powertrain market.
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Old 3 Nov 2017, 19:49 (Ref:3778403)   #2381
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If all three opted to enter, could their influence open up the chassis regulations?

They all also are very active in the powertrain market.
Is there anything to stop F1 going electric?
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Old 3 Nov 2017, 20:07 (Ref:3778405)   #2382
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Is there anything to stop F1 going electric?
Only the mass switching off of its viewing audience who would choose to watch the World Paint Drying Watching Championship instead.
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Old 3 Nov 2017, 20:55 (Ref:3778417)   #2383
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Renault's suggestion..

"Renault's proposal for six months now has been to keep the current engine but waiving any restriction in terms of fuel quantity, plus moving the fuel flow limitation and also the rev limit," added Abiteboul.


"The great thing about that proposal is you could do that without having to wait until 2021.
I am far from having experience in engine design, but I am a relatively intelligent person (or so I think! ) and I try to follow the "hows and whys" around the current F1 power unit spec including reading stuff posted by people who do this type of thing. My amature opinion is that... Abiteboul doesn't know what he is talking about.

My understanding is that much of these engines are very much optimized to generate as much power as they can given the constraints such as current maximum fuel flow limits, displacement and other key factors in the technical regulation. This generates side effects. Such as the engines tending to run below the maximum RPM limits because to run higher RPMs (and to make efficient power) you actually need a higher fuel flow rate than what is allowed. Additionally, I expect things like turbines and the entire ERS-H system is sized based upon the expected maximum flow through the engine. I think some of the combustion concepts "might" be optimized for the current RPM range.

Substantially increasing the flow rates (which will also push up the RPM range actually used) should result a number of changes to the engine. Particularly with anything related to moving gases in and out of the engine... which is quite a lot of stuff.

So... could you take the current engines and just increase flow rate and RPM. I am sure you could. Would it be an optimal solution given the new higher flow rate? I expect not. Would a manufacturer that does reengineer the solution for the new higher flow rate create a better solution? I expect so. And given how Mercedes has proven that showing up with an optimal solution is the way to win, who in their right mind would try to use the current solution without reworking it?

Any new spec that has substantial changes (and I can't see the new spec not having substantial changes given what the fans are looking for) will trigger a new arms race.

Is that not competition?

Richard
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Old 3 Nov 2017, 21:05 (Ref:3778419)   #2384
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I am far from having experience in engine design, but I am a relatively intelligent person (or so I think! ) and I try to follow the "hows and whys" around the current F1 power unit spec including reading stuff posted by people who do this type of thing. My amature opinion is that... Abiteboul doesn't know what he is talking about.

My understanding is that much of these engines are very much optimized to generate as much power as they can given the constraints such as current maximum fuel flow limits, displacement and other key factors in the technical regulation. This generates side effects. Such as the engines tending to run below the maximum RPM limits because to run higher RPMs (and to make efficient power) you actually need a higher fuel flow rate than what is allowed. Additionally, I expect things like turbines and the entire ERS-H system is sized based upon the expected maximum flow through the engine. I think some of the combustion concepts "might" be optimized for the current RPM range.

Substantially increasing the flow rates (which will also push up the RPM range actually used) should result a number of changes to the engine. Particularly with anything related to moving gases in and out of the engine... which is quite a lot of stuff.

So... could you take the current engines and just increase flow rate and RPM. I am sure you could. Would it be an optimal solution given the new higher flow rate? I expect not. Would a manufacturer that does reengineer the solution for the new higher flow rate create a better solution? I expect so. And given how Mercedes has proven that showing up with an optimal solution is the way to win, who in their right mind would try to use the current solution without reworking it?

Any new spec that has substantial changes (and I can't see the new spec not having substantial changes given what the fans are looking for) will trigger a new arms race.

Is that not competition?

Richard
In short, you are very much correct with your assessment.

But - is it just opening up flow rate, or are we also talking about certain elements having to meet current specification, and is total fuel capacity proposed to change?
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Old 3 Nov 2017, 22:09 (Ref:3778425)   #2385
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Only the mass switching off of its viewing audience who would choose to watch the World Paint Drying Watching Championship instead.
but the masses are already turning off
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Old 3 Nov 2017, 23:40 (Ref:3778436)   #2386
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In short, you are very much correct with your assessment.

But - is it just opening up flow rate, or are we also talking about certain elements having to meet current specification, and is total fuel capacity proposed to change?
I am saying even if just increased flow rate and associated (and required) tank size increase to run race distance with higher flow rate.

While much of the engine spec is tightly controlled, there is still plenty of room for unique solutions (such as differences between the current manufacturers) within the current technical specifications. So I am saying his "simple" solutions would trigger significant work if you expect to be competitive. Tank increase alone is not inconsequential. Think of the existing tight packaging, increase in car weight, etc.

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Old 4 Nov 2017, 00:26 (Ref:3778440)   #2387
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I am saying even if just increased flow rate and associated (and required) tank size increase to run race distance with higher flow rate.

While much of the engine spec is tightly controlled, there is still plenty of room for unique solutions (such as differences between the current manufacturers) within the current technical specifications. So I am saying his "simple" solutions would trigger significant work if you expect to be competitive. Tank increase alone is not inconsequential. Think of the existing tight packaging, increase in car weight, etc.

Richard
Interesting that the hybrid systems bring the real expense into F1, yet everyone is discussing modifying the engines.
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Old 4 Nov 2017, 08:27 (Ref:3778490)   #2388
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My understanding is that the engines can already rev higher than they do, but the drivers / teams choose not to because it wouldn't benefit them in terms of power band or fuel usage.
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Old 4 Nov 2017, 08:32 (Ref:3778492)   #2389
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Isn't there talk of raising the engine speed limit by 3000 RPM? Despite the flow modifications that will be required for this the engines will need significant physical strengthening in order to hold together. The forces within the engine will increase dramatically!
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Old 4 Nov 2017, 10:44 (Ref:3778507)   #2390
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Isn't there talk of raising the engine speed limit by 3000 RPM? Despite the flow modifications that will be required for this the engines will need significant physical strengthening in order to hold together. The forces within the engine will increase dramatically!
They will increase dramatically, but still be well within what is still very well known territory for a 1.6 v6 at 15.000rpm.
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Old 4 Nov 2017, 11:51 (Ref:3778513)   #2391
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Interesting that the hybrid systems bring the real expense into F1, yet everyone is discussing modifying the engines.
Which circles back to... if even "simple" changes is likely to trigger rework and those simple changes may not really address some of the real issues (complexity and cost of ERS-H). Then why not use the new spec to fix multiple issues? I think Liberty's proposal is a quite practical.

I am also curious how much of this proposal has its roots in Ross Brawn's technical team?

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Old 4 Nov 2017, 20:11 (Ref:3778598)   #2392
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Why is it surprising that hybrid stuff takes a lot of development? There has been huge development of the engines over the last hundred or so years. The base technology in some the hybrid systems has been around as long, if not longer, but not developed to the wonderful extreme that the internal combustion engine has.

Good init?!
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Old 4 Nov 2017, 20:36 (Ref:3778606)   #2393
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P38 in workshop has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
I may be a contrarian,but I fail to see the point of higher revving engines making more noise and burning more fuel.It gets even more bizarre if they further restrict the number of engines per season.By limiting the number of engines,it is essential to do yet more dyno testing to reduce the risk of failure or grid penalties and it also means that in season developments are much more widely spread as the engines are brought into use.

Can't Ross Brawn and his sidekicks do something a bit more creative?Perhaps losing DRS or if you are willing to permit moveable aerodynamic features why not allow a spec computer to run active suspension?It could mean eliminating the increasingly complex front wings and bargeboards that are now prevalent.
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Old 4 Nov 2017, 21:03 (Ref:3778616)   #2394
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Only the mass switching off of its viewing audience who would choose to watch the World Paint Drying Watching Championship instead.
That will happen anyway, once F1 is no longer FTA.
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Old 4 Nov 2017, 21:55 (Ref:3778627)   #2395
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Can't Ross Brawn and his sidekicks do something a bit more creative?Perhaps losing DRS or if you are willing to permit moveable aerodynamic features why not allow a spec computer to run active suspension?It could mean eliminating the increasingly complex front wings and bargeboards that are now prevalent.
I believe that the proposal for a larger ERS-K system is to create a bit of a push to pass system. I can envision DRS will not go away until they have addressed the problem DRS tries to solve.

Regarding the active suspension idea, I championed something like that as well previously. Spec computer (to set level playing field for compute power), plus limit number of actuators and sensors. Should be a way to both level the playing field and reduce costs. However, I can imagine teams would be against it as they have legacy knowledge on how to optimize complex mechanical systems. It would invalidate the advantages enjoyed by the rich teams.

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Old 4 Nov 2017, 22:10 (Ref:3778628)   #2396
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I believe that the proposal for a larger ERS-K system is to create a bit of a push to pass system. I can envision DRS will not go away until they have addressed the problem DRS tries to solve.

Regarding the active suspension idea, I championed something like that as well previously. Spec computer (to set level playing field for compute power), plus limit number of actuators and sensors. Should be a way to both level the playing field and reduce costs. However, I can imagine teams would be against it as they have legacy knowledge on how to optimize complex mechanical systems. It would invalidate the advantages enjoyed by the rich teams.

Richard
A push to pass system and DRS? With the new aero-kit, IndyCar are looking to do away with push to pass after next season. It never ceases to amaze me but if F1 can over complicate something, they will.
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Old 5 Nov 2017, 02:56 (Ref:3778698)   #2397
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A push to pass system and DRS? With the new aero-kit, IndyCar are looking to do away with push to pass after next season. It never ceases to amaze me but if F1 can over complicate something, they will.
I can only speculate. I think they want to do away with DRS. Question is... will they swap it for another solution (push to pass), or phase one in and then phase the other out. I doubt they will have both at same time, but who knows?

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Old 5 Nov 2017, 07:03 (Ref:3778737)   #2398
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Here's an idea from left field....what about slick tyres,a DFV engine and a wing on the front and the back?...
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Old 5 Nov 2017, 10:38 (Ref:3778775)   #2399
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So the manufacturers want to increase weight even further by keeping the MGU-H and increasing the fuel allowance... .

Increasing the rpm while keeping the MGU-H will not nearly as much increase the sound as removing MGU-H altogether, let alone combining it with an increase in rpm. Furthermore the engines would get too powerful. By 2020 the cars would perhaps go too fast even; the aero improvement, plus efficiency improvement plus greater fuel allowance would result in a further massive performance increase. I fear it would get too much.

I think Brawn's proposal makes sense. Unless the manufacturers come up with better ways to improve the sound while keeping the MGU-H which doesn't seem likely given the basic physics behind it.
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Old 5 Nov 2017, 11:19 (Ref:3778787)   #2400
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At least they are getting rid of the T wings next season. That's a start. Now if only they got rid of the other ugly winglets too, that would be even better
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