Honda Withdrawl from F1

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I did a bit of Googling and came across that as well.

Before seeing that article, if I put together my own list by memory, I would have missed Bugatti and Bentley. Porsche and Lamborghini are quick to mind as the most recent from that list. And I have an affinity for the Audi/Auto Union cars given it's ties to Porsche (the man not the company).

Richard

[Akrapovic]

So none, then. VAG has never been in F1.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

So none, then. VAG has never been in F1.

Be good to see them back though!

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

So none, then. VAG has never been in F1.

You mean F3 doesnt count as nearly there? Or Australian F2? Palmer Audi? That is as close to F1 as they have been I guess.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Be good to see them back though!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

So none, then. VAG has never been in F1.

If some people say that Mercedes can claim the Brawn WCC as their own, then maybe we can say VAG is back in F1!

Richard

[Greem]

I used to have a Seat Leon and I've driven it to Silverstone to a number of Grand Prix. Does that count?

[S griffin]

OK, so current VW group manufacturers have competed in F1 before, like Porsche and Lamborghini, but never when they were actually part of the VW group. Although VW did build an F1 engine in the mid 80s, but that's another story

[Peter Mallett]

Phew, glad we got that sorted. Next!

[Tourer]

Good that the engine freeze is in but I hope it works out better than the previous engine freeze.

No in-season engine modifications in 2021 according to this article and if none allowed between the end of this season and the start of the freeze (do we have that detail at this stage?) then there is a possibility that one engine supplier could zag when all the other zig and end up far better or far worse but keep that advantage as no-one else is permitted to develop their power units.

When a freeze is then applied, there is zero opportunity for anyone to catch up if their package is not delivering - so we have a rules-enforced period where the "haves" can't be caught at all by the "have nots" for however long the freeze is in place and given the advantage during the freeze and the low-risk developments on other parts of the car that the "have" teams can do, there is likely a significant advantage that remains for some years.

Let's call it "the Mercedes factor" - not the team's fault of course but that's what we've had ever since the current engine rules came into place and in reality it is only now that other teams are getting close enough to the Mercs to occasionally challenge on pure pace.

Let's hope that lessons were imprinted after the freeze at the start of the hybrid era, otherwise we're facing a long period of the currently lop-sided competition.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Good that the engine freeze is in but I hope it works out better than the previous engine freeze.

Let's call it "the Mercedes factor" - not the team's fault of course but that's what we've had ever since the current engine rules came into place and in reality it is only now that other teams are getting close enough to the Mercs to occasionally challenge on pure pace.

Let's hope that lessons were imprinted after the freeze at the start of the hybrid era, otherwise we're facing a long period of the currently lop-sided competition.

Are lessons ever learned, it would seem not. Every time they have tried to nobble Mercedes it has failed badly. Didn't Marko proclaim that restricting engine mapping was going to allow RB to compete for the championship? That went well and I suspect he has conveniently forgotten that in the excitement of the Honda commitment that RB have managed to achieve.

This harks back to the token system when the hybrids were first introduced and will set in stone the pecking order but the bright people can't see that or maybe Mercedes can and know they will continue to win at less cost. Maybe Toto is not as silly as a lot of people think he is.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Casper

Are lessons ever learned, it would seem not. Every time they have tried to nobble Mercedes it has failed badly. Didn't Marko proclaim that restricting engine mapping was going to allow RB to compete for the championship? That went well and I suspect he has conveniently forgotten that in the excitement of the Honda commitment that RB have managed to achieve.

This harks back to the token system when the hybrids were first introduced and will set in stone the pecking order but the bright people can't see that or maybe Mercedes can and know they will continue to win at less cost. Maybe Toto is not as silly as a lot of people think he is.

Yep - although the token system didn't exist when hybrids were first introduced - only came a season or two later - was a complete freeze to begin with. During that period, as it became clear that the Mercedes engine config turned out to be a better option than the others, the others were simply unable to do anything to peg that back. Then the token system restricted how much could be done each year by the others - thus giving Mercedes a huge multi-year benefit from calling "heads" instead of "tails" when deciding on their PU configuration - fair play to them but not great for the sport.

Probably needs to have a process similar to aero restrictions where those further down in the results have some opportunity to develop their machines to catch up.

[Casper]

F1 fundamentally has always been unfair and loaded against anyone except the top teams winning either the championship(s) or races on a regular basis. The exception to this was the Hunt/Hesketh years and that lasted a very short time.

Placing a PU freeze in place now was done at the behest and dare I say it blackmail tactics by one team and I have to say that it irks me to see that happen. When RB were winning multiple championships and everyone was screaming for them to be nobbled I wrote here that it is up to the other teams to get their act together and beat them. So RB have acted and we have the freeze they wanted but back when they were winning if another team was to have lobbied as hard as RB have done in recent times to affect their winning Marko & Co would have gone beserk to prevent it. Double standards have also been a feature of F1 as well.

I think this freeze will affect the minor teams more than the front teams but the reasons for that are hard to outline at the moment and I may be wrong.

Originally Posted by Tourer

Probably needs to have a process similar to aero restrictions where those further down in the results have some opportunity to develop their machines to catch up.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Casper

F1 fundamentally has always been unfair and loaded against anyone except the top teams winning either the championship(s) or races on a regular basis. The exception to this was the Hunt/Hesketh years and that lasted a very short time.

Arguably Scheckter / Wolf.... won a few races and in 1977 came 2nd in the WDC, 4th in the WCC (with only 1 car). Yes it was in effect the old Williams, but privately owned none the less. That also was aa brief success period.
Brawn I guess is a bit of an anomaly, being a spin off of Honda.

[karting]

Honda Engines to be Rebranded as RedBull and they will have their own engine department

[steve nielsen]

OK: seems to be official now:

https://twitter.com/redbullracing/st...39356963487745

https://twitter.com/HondaRacingF1/st...39521497595904

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by E.B

Arguably Scheckter / Wolf.... won a few races and in 1977 came 2nd in the WDC, 4th in the WCC (with only 1 car). Yes it was in effect the old Williams, but privately owned none the less. That also was aa brief success period.
Brawn I guess is a bit of an anomaly, being a spin off of Honda.

It could be that RBR do a 'Brawn' in 2022 and win the title and Honda would have the irony again of all the previous investment but no prize..

AVL are to maintain the engines for Red Bull Powertrains from 2022, I believe.

Sent from my SNE-LX1 using Tapatalk

[steve nielsen]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

It could be that RBR do a 'Brawn' in 2022 and win the title and Honda would have the irony again of all the previous investment but no prize..

AVL are to maintain the engines for Red Bull Powertrains from 2022, I believe.

Sent from my SNE-LX1 using Tapatalk

They will work together with AVL but also employ a lot of Honda's F1 staff

[S griffin]

We'll see how well this goes. Without Honda it will be interesting. Red Bull need to make sure they have enough funds to keep developing their own engine

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Casper

Are lessons ever learned, it would seem not. Every time they have tried to nobble Mercedes it has failed badly. Didn't Marko proclaim that restricting engine mapping was going to allow RB to compete for the championship? That went well and I suspect he has conveniently forgotten that in the excitement of the Honda commitment that RB have managed to achieve.

This harks back to the token system when the hybrids were first introduced and will set in stone the pecking order but the bright people can't see that or maybe Mercedes can and know they will continue to win at less cost. Maybe Toto is not as silly as a lot of people think he is.

Who thinks Toto is silly?!!!

[billy bleach]

Andy Cowell to head the new Redbull Power train?...

[Richard C]

I really hope this Red Bull power train organization is not just a stopgap solution until the next power unit spec. Because while they have deep pockets, they are not "manufacture deep". And their objectives are likely different than manufactures. They probably are really interested in cost and competitiveness. So super innovative designs that require either a significant up front or long term development budget would not be attractive to them. With this implying relatively simple power units for 2025. There needs to be someone like them pushing in that direction regarding 2025.

Richard

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I really hope this Red Bull power train organization is not just a stopgap solution until the next power unit spec. Because while they have deep pockets, they are not "manufacture deep". And their objectives are likely different than manufactures. They probably are really interested in cost and competitiveness. So super innovative designs that require either a significant up front or long term development budget would not be attractive to them. With this implying relatively simple power units for 2025. There needs to be someone like them pushing in that direction regarding 2025.

Richard

From what Horner is saying it will give them the capability to develop an engine for the new regs if need be. Depending on any restrictions Honda have put on the IP that RB has purchased, perhaps the architecture can be the platform for collaboration with a new manufacturer to co-develop or badge the 2025 engine. Or perhaps ideal for a manufacturer that doesn't have a massive motorsport infrastructure (say Lynk or one of the other Chinese manufacturers) that can provide some tech input but mostly cash to develop the engine.

Gives RBR great independence and the flexbility to entirely design the car from end to end from the start.

[S griffin]

Let’s see how well it goes. Honda have been quite good lately, but no surprise they are leaving. Red Bull will have a lot to do. They probably don’t have a bottomless pit of money and this will be tough for them, so they have to make sure they have enough to keep it going

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

...With this implying relatively simple power units for 2025...

now that they are engine manu's, it will be interesting to see how much influence they can have over the direction of new regs.

although, with one of the stated aims of t being relevant to the auto industry makes me think they are already at odds with the others regarding future direction.

also, i would have to think that by now Merc, Ferrari, and Renault are well into their development for the next PU and will advance the need for their own preferred configurations...for much the same reasons the current regs were adopted.

surely this new venture is already playing catch up no?

maybe im being cynical but i dont see how RB will be able to compete right out of the box in an area where well established engines manus are frequently made to look foolish.

for me this has to be just a stop gap and they will go back to being customers post 2025 or whenever the new PU arrive.