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Old 14 Oct 2020, 08:50 (Ref:4010546)   #26
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Originally Posted by wnut View Post
Nelson Piquet - Complete rubbish really, fell into 3 WDCs by complete luck.

Massa more than handy before Brawn didn't bother to withdraw a car with a known problem.
Piquet was well past it by time Schumacher joined. then he had Brundle, Verstappen, Lehto, Herbert, Barichello, a young Massa.

Hamilton has had Alonso, Button, Rosberg, Bottas, Heiki

we can go around in circles with this argument though, trying to compare is impossible. i think its true to say though that hamilton has had tougher teammates, in equal machinery, without number 1 status.

Same can be said for Fangio who was even given his teammates cars after he retired....something you couldnt do these days!.... it would be interesting to go back and see how many championships Fangio would have lost if that hadnt been allowed.

Lets just enjoy 2 greats of their era, appreciate the magnitude of Schumachers achievements and that Hamilton has managed to scale the impossible slope.

Astonishing achievments by both
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Old 14 Oct 2020, 09:46 (Ref:4010571)   #27
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Both Hamilton and Schumacher are stat accumulators. Piling on stats long after their point is made.
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Old 14 Oct 2020, 13:13 (Ref:4010617)   #28
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I don't agree that Hamilton hasn't had no.1 status? Come on!!

He had it in '08/09 then McLaren decided they needed another topliner to fight RB and Ferrari and so Whitmarsh signed Button.

When he joined Merc I find it highly unlikely there wasn't some element of preference in the contract otherwise he wouldn't have taken the risk.

Nico was supposed to play 2nd fiddle but decided not to, hence the fireworks.

Since 2017 there has clearly been a no.1 and no.2. That has generally been the same in RB and also in Ferrari until they decided Vettel wasn't upto it anymore and pushed Leclerc forward.

That aside, there is no doubt in my mind that Hamilton is one of the top 6 drivers ever, maybe top 3 (I do not base that purely on statistics, cause that would be a bit obvious, no?) but he is probably the first driver, with the style of on-track calibre that I admire the most I.E. a real racer (and those talents don't come along very often) who I find quite objectionable in character. But hey, that's just me
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Old 14 Oct 2020, 13:41 (Ref:4010620)   #29
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I don't agree that Hamilton hasn't had no.1 status? Come on!!

He had it in '08/09 then McLaren decided they needed another topliner to fight RB and Ferrari and so Whitmarsh signed Button.

When he joined Merc I find it highly unlikely there wasn't some element of preference in the contract otherwise he wouldn't have taken the risk.

Nico was supposed to play 2nd fiddle but decided not to, hence the fireworks.

Since 2017 there has clearly been a no.1 and no.2. That has generally been the same in RB and also in Ferrari until they decided Vettel wasn't upto it anymore and pushed Leclerc forward.

That aside, there is no doubt in my mind that Hamilton is one of the top 6 drivers ever, maybe top 3 (I do not base that purely on statistics, cause that would be a bit obvious, no?) but he is probably the first driver, with the style of on-track calibre that I admire the most I.E. a real racer (and those talents don't come along very often) who I find quite objectionable in character. But hey, that's just me
ENTIRELY different to have number 1 status written into your contract, receive new parts first by default as Schumacher did and Hamilton’s situation where talent got him number 1 status.

2007 - he beat an experienced teammate to become top dog
2008 -2009 top dog against heiki on talent alone
2010-2012 against button there was no number 1/ number 2
2013-present, Hamilton and his teammates have consistently been allowed to race one another, the only time team orders have been implemented is when his teammate was out of the championship hunt
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Old 14 Oct 2020, 14:12 (Ref:4010624)   #30
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Nico was supposed to play 2nd fiddle but decided not to, hence the fireworks.
Are you sure? I don't recall ever hearing that before....
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Old 14 Oct 2020, 14:30 (Ref:4010627)   #31
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When it comes to this no.1 and no.2 status thing people deal in absolutes, whereas there are really degrees.

For Hamilton his team mates have been allowed to beat him and, while not always, best drivers available who may challenge him were signed. I don’t think that was quite the same with Schumacher.

Before anyone gets giddy I’m not saying they detract from either. Although I have preferred the McLaren and Mercedes approach to the Ferrari one.
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Old 14 Oct 2020, 14:56 (Ref:4010637)   #32
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2010-2012 against button there was no number 1/ number 2
Button is the only one of his team mates to beat Hamilton so soundly as he did in 2011.... ie 40+ points , more podiums (same win tally).
Rosberg of course beat him but scored fewer wins, fewer podiums and only 5 more points
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Old 14 Oct 2020, 15:16 (Ref:4010642)   #33
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To be fair Hamilton’s head was all over the pace that season. Add to the fact Button had a car well suited to his driving style meant he was often Vettel’s closest challenger, hence second in the points
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Old 14 Oct 2020, 15:27 (Ref:4010648)   #34
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It's clearly either Hamilton or Clark....
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Old 14 Oct 2020, 15:30 (Ref:4010649)   #35
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Lots of different opinions of course.

Whilst no great supporter of either it is fair to say Lewis's driving is an example to others in the sport,* whilst Michael was sometimes the opposite.

* I am generalising and no doubt a key board warrior will claim turn 3, lap 34, race 9 of the 2009 season Lewis did......................
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Old 14 Oct 2020, 15:31 (Ref:4010651)   #36
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Nico was supposed to play 2nd fiddle but decided not to, hence the fireworks.
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Are you sure? I don't recall ever hearing that before....
iirc, when Schumi signed up, Nico had a clause guaranteeing him equal money to whoever the the other driver was...the logic being if a team paid both drivers the same then they would treat both equally. this clause then extended over to when Merc signed Ham.

in the end, it's for sure debatable how much that affected the dynamic but a smart clause nontheless.

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Button is the only one of his team mates to beat Hamilton so soundly as he did in 2011.... ie 40+ points , more podiums (same win tally).
Rosberg of course beat him but scored fewer wins, fewer podiums and only 5 more points
those team mates of course being the knocks on LH being considered the GOAT.

more Button for me because of the types of wins Button managed against Lewis particularly those Mclaren wins he got in variable weather conditions.

being a master in the rain has to be a GOAT factor and Senna or Schumi were considered peerless in this. of course so is LH except when he was paired with Button.
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Old 14 Oct 2020, 16:30 (Ref:4010660)   #37
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No one can be The "Greatest of all time" as no one knows what will happen tomorrow or next year, so by that measure he could be Greatest To Date (GTD), but that makes him sound like a rather poor version of the golf GTI. To be honest everyone will have different idea's and different ways of measuring this so it is pointless other than to give people something to argue about. But in my opinion he is not even in my top 5 anyway.
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Old 14 Oct 2020, 17:49 (Ref:4010684)   #38
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It's clearly either Hamilton or Clark....
That’s brilliant.

I do know I am guilty of using a forename of one driver and a surname of another in the same post. I blame Kimi
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Old 14 Oct 2020, 17:50 (Ref:4010685)   #39
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iirc, when Schumi signed up, Nico had a clause guaranteeing him equal money to whoever the the other driver was...the logic being if a team paid both drivers the same then they would treat both equally. this clause then extended over to when Merc signed Ham.
I have never heard this before.

It makes me think of his Dad Keke - that’s the sort of thing he might do
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Old 14 Oct 2020, 18:02 (Ref:4010686)   #40
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Button is the only one of his team mates to beat Hamilton so soundly as he did in 2011.... ie 40+ points , more podiums (same win tally).
Rosberg of course beat him but scored fewer wins, fewer podiums and only 5 more points
I wouldn’t call it “soundly“, but he did beat him. And Button did score more points over their time together. I always thought that this reflected very well on Button.
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Old 14 Oct 2020, 18:37 (Ref:4010699)   #41
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I have never heard this before.

It makes me think of his Dad Keke - that’s the sort of thing he might do
right!

but cant recall where i read that and struggling to find anything mentioning it now to be honest.

did find this for what its worth though. admittedly though this could mean any number of things.

Yes, that's good. And it's in my contract that I always have the same opportunities as my teammate, no matter who it is," Rosberg answered.

https://www.auto123.com/en/racing-ne...n?artid=148185
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Old 15 Oct 2020, 21:40 (Ref:4010888)   #42
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right!

but cant recall where i read that and struggling to find anything mentioning it now to be honest.

did find this for what its worth though. admittedly though this could mean any number of things.

Yes, that's good. And it's in my contract that I always have the same opportunities as my teammate, no matter who it is," Rosberg answered.

https://www.auto123.com/en/racing-ne...n?artid=148185
Rosberg being very self effacing there.
I suspect his tongue was firmly in his cheek.
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Old 16 Oct 2020, 09:43 (Ref:4010966)   #43
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I wouldn’t call it “soundly“, but he did beat him. And Button did score more points over their time together. I always thought that this reflected very well on Button.
I thought in 2011 of all seasons, Hamilton was soundly beaten on most Sundays by Button, who really showed his class. However, even then Hamilton was still regularly the only major challenger to Red Bull's dominance in qualifying, taking the only non-RBR pole position at Yeongam which reminded everyone his talent hadn't gone away simply due to many clumsy moments over the season, primarily involving Felipe Massa. But then again, only one McLaren driver that season was pulling off drives such as that Canada race and a win in Japan that was one of the most complete performances I've seen on race day. I know most wouldn't put Jenson in the same tier as Lewis and Fernando but he could outperform both regularly and cannot be regarded as notably weaker imo.

But to come back to the main point, I'm one of those boring relativists who doesn't like to pick a GOAT (aside from in men's tennis), but to discount Hamilton from the discussion given the way he has led Mercedes since Rosberg left would be a massive oversight imo. 2018 in particular was one of the most impressive title wins I can recall given the frequent advantage Ferrari had.
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Old 16 Oct 2020, 09:45 (Ref:4010967)   #44
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Not sure Lewis has number 1 status written into his contract, but there's a reason Bottas is in that seat and not Max Verstappen.
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Old 16 Oct 2020, 11:08 (Ref:4010978)   #45
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Not sure Lewis has number 1 status written into his contract, but there's a reason Bottas is in that seat and not Max Verstappen.
Absolutely. Just the same reason Hamilton isn’t in the second seat at Red Bull, Vettel isn’t against Max etc.

No team needs, nor wants 2 utterly selfish, completely driven, alpha males competing against each other tearing the team apart.

We’ve seen it before with Prost/ Senna, Hamilton/ alonso....it doesn’t work

Again, there’s a big difference between having number 1 status by contract and number 1 status by talent. One gives the teammate a chance to shine, the other doesnt
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Old 16 Oct 2020, 11:19 (Ref:4010982)   #46
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Not sure Lewis has number 1 status written into his contract, but there's a reason Bottas is in that seat and not Max Verstappen.
Yes, Red Bull signed him!

And why chase him for millions when you already have Hamilton?

This is all why it is rare to have the top two talents in one team.
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Old 16 Oct 2020, 11:50 (Ref:4010987)   #47
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Yes, Red Bull signed him!

And why chase him for millions when you already have Hamilton?

This is all why it is rare to have the top two talents in one team.
Why have the 2 best drivers when you already have 1? Even more points? Even more domination? Even more 1-2s? An absolutely guaranteed 1-2 in the championship? Having a real backup driver who'll win the race when your main one won't? Hard to say Bottas ticks these boxes.

The reason they don't want two top talents is the Lewis Rosberg situation. Simply, it's harder to manage. The pure results were absolutely better than the Lewis Bottas pairing. But my god it was a lot of stress and drama for Mercedes.

Same with things like Senna and Prost. The actual results McLaren got when they were team mates were amazing, and much better than after Prost left. But the reality was it was an impossibly hard situation to manage.

Why is Bottas in that seat? Because he won't beat Lewis. Why is Bottas getting 1 year contract extensions? Because when he doesn't finish second in the championship, it's easier to drop him for a number 2.

Note: None of this is a criticism of Lewis.
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Old 16 Oct 2020, 15:05 (Ref:4011027)   #48
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In 2007 if McLaren had either Hamilton or Alonso plus a number 2 they would've won the WDC. OK Stepney giving them photocopies of Ferrari IP might've meant the FIA would've found a more creative punishment to stop them.
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Old 16 Oct 2020, 15:19 (Ref:4011033)   #49
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In 2007 if McLaren had either Hamilton or Alonso plus a number 2 they would've won the WDC. OK Stepney giving them photocopies of Ferrari IP might've meant the FIA would've found a more creative punishment to stop them.
I believe that when McLaren signed Hamilton alongside Alonso this may have been the original plan
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Old 16 Oct 2020, 16:46 (Ref:4011040)   #50
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Ferrari let Massa and Raikkonen race that same season, until the final three races when the team got behind Kimi
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