Marshalling Standards/Working on a live track (merged)

[Stoowert]

Over the past few weeks I've heard some quite worrying things about our hobby:
1. Marshals are being told in the morning on-post briefings that they are not to go "Trackside" unless the track is neutralised, either by a red flag or safety car.
2. Quite a few Post Chiefs and/or IOs are not giving proper on-post briefings.

The first point concerns me in that why do we go marshalling? Surely it's to help with the smooth running, and ultimate promotion of motorsport. If you want to watch the cars, go sit in the stands! The thing that worries mr most is that the people giving this instruction say it is an MSA directive. It isn't! (See the thread about the banning of scanners!)
The second post tottal confuses me! I always give some kind of briefing before play commences, if only to give me some idea as to how the structure of the post will work. I stres that, as volunteers, I won't ask anyone to do anything they don't want to do, and I won't stop them from doing anything, acting their own initiative (within reason!). If I don't agree with their actions, we'll have a chat about it afterwards.

Also, as I've marshalled at Silverstone a few times recently, the demarcation of jobs between PC & IO seems a bit vague! Once again, at my briefing I stress I'm responsible for the safe running of the post, but once you cross the line of the tyre wall, your IO is the boss. How does that sound?

There...I long diatribe, and no mention of radios or land lines!

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally Posted by Stoowert

1. Marshals are being told in the morning on-post briefings that they are not to go "Trackside" unless the track is neutralised, either by a red flag or safety car.

That's an interesting one. For some years at Mondello, I had that policy for myself and crew (when there was one) because of the appalling driving standards with some classes. It was quite deliberate. I have no problem working trackside, provided I can be reasonably assured that drivers will be sensible under yellows i.e. not overtaking, not speeding through a wet corner flat out, not skidding and spinning etc. etc. Ok there's no guarantees of safety - but when you know for a fact that this is the behaviour you can actively expect, then the only way to get the message across is to ensure that there are lots and lots of race interruptions. Then when the drivers complain, make it clear why.

Happily, we don't have that problem anymore as there has been a drastic improvement in both driving standards and the standards of disciplinary action.

But it's one possible explanation.

[Woolley]

Stoowert, I'm in complete agreement with you about how it ought to be, although in my recent experience I can't say I've had either problem.

Re #2, at Oulton I think I've always had a briefing, but at Silverstone I'm always flagging so don't necessarily get one (unless I do it myself). If I can see the nearest incident post having a briefing I do go along and say hello.

AS EP says, though, for some series I wouldn't dream of going trackside while they're out because I don't trust them, but that's not a specific policy, just something I judge on the day. For series where I know in advance I don't trust them then I choose not to attend. Curiously these seem to be the more popular with other marshals which makes me wonder if:

1) They prefer these kinds of drivers
2) They prefer this kind of marshalling
3) That's what they mostly experience and it's being taken into... less high profile meetings.

[Bodysnatcher]

I've heard these 2 points quite a lot recently too. C'mon Stewart, tell us who is winding you up by telling you this and what their actual endgame is.

Have they told you yet about the plan to downgrade people they don't think are doing things their way?

Propaganda by a few people. (They repeat the story enough and some will believe them ) Some who should know better.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Stoowert

1. Marshals are being told in the morning on-post briefings that they are not to go "Trackside" unless the track is neutralised, either by a red flag or safety car.

As someone who is fairly new to marshalling (only in my 3rd season), I got many confusing messages from different PCs & IOs about this. The general impression that was conveyed to me early on was that marshals should not be going onto a live circuit, and yet it seemed to happen anyway.

More recently, I've noticed more and more talk of "getting things back to the way they were 10 years ago," and getting marshals out there and dealing with incidents. There seems to be a concerted effort by a few people, to eradicate the "don't go onto a live circuit" attitude, with a few people at least feeling quite strongly about it.

Now of course, circumstances vary, and it's not always safe to go dashing out there to check on a driver in a bent car, or to push a stranded car out of the way, but IMHO with respect to safety rule number 1, there are plenty of times, when I have felt happy to and that I should be out there, dealing with things.

IMHO, a concerted effort is required by the People At The Top to ensure that PCs and IOs are not telling people to not go out when it's safe to do so. A uniform message needs to be conveyed to marshals new and old. I'm not advocating disciplinary procedures, but we need some manner of providing feedback to people who continue to take such an attitude, and a means of preventing them from continuing to do so if they persist in this attitude. Discussions on 10/10 are all good, but are not alone going to change anything.

[Woolley]

It should be covered under training. For me, it goes like this.

If you are sufficiently confident of your own safety, get on and do it, but with the following proviso:

Wait for the dust to settle.
Plan your actions before starting.
Don't get isolated and do all you can to protect yourself while operating.

If you don't feel safe because of the location, drivers or type of incident, then don't go out.

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by Stoowert

Over the past few weeks I've heard some quite worrying things about our hobby:
1. Marshals are being told in the morning on-post briefings that they are not to go "Trackside" unless the track is neutralised, either by a red flag or safety car.
2. Quite a few Post Chiefs and/or IOs are not giving proper on-post briefings.

The first point concerns me in that why do we go marshalling? Surely it's to help with the smooth running, and ultimate promotion of motorsport. If you want to watch the cars, go sit in the stands! The thing that worries mr most is that the people giving this instruction say it is an MSA directive. It isn't! (See the thread about the banning of scanners!)
The second post tottal confuses me! I always give some kind of briefing before play commences, if only to give me some idea as to how the structure of the post will work. I stres that, as volunteers, I won't ask anyone to do anything they don't want to do, and I won't stop them from doing anything, acting their own initiative (within reason!). If I don't agree with their actions, we'll have a chat about it afterwards.

Also, as I've marshalled at Silverstone a few times recently, the demarcation of jobs between PC & IO seems a bit vague! Once again, at my briefing I stress I'm responsible for the safe running of the post, but once you cross the line of the tyre wall, your IO is the boss. How does that sound?

There...I long diatribe, and no mention of radios or land lines!

I can only speak for my experiences at Oulton Park, both as I/O and recently Observer and can say I have not encountered any of the two points you mention.

With regard to demarkation twixt I/O and Observer, the blue book states clearly that an Observer should not get personally involved in incident handling (I think it assumes a graded I/O is on hand) although the Observer is in charge of, and responsible for, the post and all aspects of it. Personally, if acting as I/O, I would reacquaint any observer getting out of the box and personally involved in doing my job for me, with section G 9.1.1 of the Blue Thing.

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

I got many confusing messages from different PCs & IOs about this. The general impression that was conveyed to me early on was that marshals should not be going onto a live circuit, and yet it seemed to happen anyway..

my bold

The general advice I would have given as an IO to a trainee is that I would not want them to be first out or unaccompanied on an expedition onto a live track. As a post Chief I would still endorse this course of action.
My regular post has a lot of live track action, but since I'm the responsible adult, I still prefer it kept to a minimum and controlled as much as possible. There have been many many arguements about what level of protection a flappy bit of yellow cotton provides.

Different Post chiefs/IOs/Circuits/grades of meeting will have different thresholds for positive or passive reaction. You should be awere of this by now Guinness, and able to reflect on why you were getting what you think of as mixed messages.

If you did a lot of BTCC to begin with, nuff said.

[aland]

it all comes down to 1 thing this going onto a live track, we cannot trust the drivers to behave. if they were to adhere to the blue book and slow right down when they see the stationary yellow and slow even more at the waved yellow basically safety car speeds we wouldnt have a problem. while some do far too many dont and thus we cant trust them as it is our lives that are at risk, okay for the drivers with cages, helmets and strapped in. all we have is our observers' whistle and our common sense to keep us safe

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

my bold

The general advice I would have given as an IO to a trainee is that I would not want them to be first out or unaccompanied on an expedition onto a live track. As a post Chief I would still endorse this course of action.

Different Post chiefs/IOs/Circuits/grades of meeting will have different thresholds for positive or passive reaction. You should be awere of this by now Guinness, and able to reflect on why you were getting what you think of as mixed messages.

If you did a lot of BTCC to begin with, nuff said.

Nope, I never felt that this was particularly aimed at me as a trainee, and I only did 4 BTCC meetings out of nearly 50 days in the first year. I'm now aware that different people have different attitudes (and I've learnt to use my own judgement), but that's my point. IMHO, we need to have a consistent attitude that (when safe of course), it's our job to be out there.

[Stoowert]

Ah Ha! (Gets out hobby-horse!). From what I'm readingthen, marshalling standards reflect DRIVING standards. I wonder if we are partly at fault by over-doing the use of yellow flags?
Senario #1. Driver enters Paddock Hill Bend (say) and sees waved yellow flag at post 3, backs off, then sees car broadside accross track and secretly thanks the marshals...
Senario #2. Driver enters PHB and sees DOUBLE waved yellows, backs off...and the track is clear! He's cursing us under his breath in best Tim Harvey fashion. But wait! Over there (points to distant snatch vehicle) that's why we have DWYs. Next time he sees waved yellows, how much do you think he'll back off? Hmm.
So far this season I've seen waved yellows (MSA rules) for a car off 50 yards before the flagpoint; a slow moving car off-line:a car with 4 wheels off track (but under control) etc etc! I don't know what the answer is, I think it must be evolutionary rather than revolutionary. It's very easy to blame everyone else, drivers, MSA, Stewards etc, but we can make a differance! If not, take up watching Gillingham in stead!

[Dave Brand]

The day marshals are forbidden to go out onto a live track is the day I'll stop marshalling! For me, one of the most satisfying parts of the job is being able to inform race control that an incident has been dealt safely with no need for the Safety Car or a red flag – it's all about keeping things running, which is why we're there.


Safety is paramount, but providing whatever is required can be done safely it should be done. Defining “safe” is the difficult bit - we all have different conceptions of what's safe. There may be an incident which I would be happy going out to but an individual marshal doesn't feel safe in doing so; that's fine with me. Conversely, if an individual marshal wants to go out to an incident when I or the IO don't consider it safe, we'll stop them – that judgement may well take into account that person's experience & ability.


I believe the briefing is one of the most important parts of the IO & Post Chief's jobs. You may be working with a team of people who have never worked together – the briefing is the first & most vital step in building that group of strangers into an effective team. For a team to be effective it has to have confidence in its leader; the briefing is crucial in building that confidence. First & foremost it's a safety briefing; some may disagree & see it as sermonising, but I think the safety message is one that can't be repeated often enough. The briefing sets out how the post will be run, important for anyone unfamiliar with the circuit, the post, the IO, Post Chief & other team members. Different circuits & individuals may have different styles; the briefing lets marshals know what's expected of them.


The way I'm used to working is that the IO does the main briefing, aimed at, but not exclusive to, the incident team, then hands over to the Post Chief for any additional information or comments including points specific to flaggies. I always discuss the briefing notes or points raised at Post Chiefs' briefing beforehand & agree who will brief on any special requirements – teamwork starts as soon as (or maybe even before) we arrive on post!


As far as demarcation is concerned, I see it more as delegation; the actual line is, & should be, blurred. The Post Chief is in overall charge of the post, but running the incident team is delegated to the IO, who in turn delegates the legwork of dealing with incidents to the incident marshals – that way, we get the job done in an efficient, professional manner & get the best out of every member of the team. Maybe I'm naïve, but I treat everybody as a responsible adult until they prove otherwise; if you treat people like idiots don't be surprised if they act like idiots.


alert!



Something nobody's mentioned, which does concern me, is the number of marshals going to incidents & the lack of urgency sometimes apparent. A straightforward pull-off, car in a safe position, driver out . . . do we really need six marshals trackside holding a post-mortem - & no bottle in evidence? Not that I'm complaining about too many marshals, but we do sometimes seem to be forgetting the basics.

[Alan.F]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Wait for the dust to settle.
Plan your actions before starting.
Don't get isolated and do all you can to protect yourself while operating.

If you don't feel safe because of the location, drivers or type of incident, then don't go out.

This is what i am told at Oulton most meetings i have never been told NOT to go out

[Bodysnatcher]

Ok Guinness, I hear what you've said.

Now, I wonder, how many of those acting in the Post Chief "role" were Observers?

Did the fad for everyone multitasking mean that in some cases people were acting in roles they were not comfortable with nor truly competent in. Still happens that square pegs get forced into round holes. There are certainly some competent IOs that cannot act as effective Post Chiefs.

Remind me again, why has the flag grade has been reinstated?

Likewise was it not about 3 years ago that some clubs began to push the business of standing behind the newly installed extra barriers. An edict, not from the marshals, but from the clubs' insurers. ISTR one club saying that if you were injured outside of this extra protection it may jeopardise any subsequent claim.

Then the folly of putting barely mature 16 years olds onto trackside posts..& don't start me about marshals being IOs after a year trackside.

is it any wonder that some took a cautious path?

perhaps then a variety of reasons for what may well be a transient problem, and one that we should all address, but is there really any need for a new "By Invite Only" club.

As to Stoo and the DWY at paddock for those JCBs, s'not the marshals waving the flags that make that choice, nor the post Chiefs. And you know it.
MSA condition for live snatching so I'm told.

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by Woolley

It should be covered under training. For me, it goes like this.

If you are sufficiently confident of your own safety, get on and do it, but with the following proviso:

Wait for the dust to settle.
Plan your actions before starting.
Don't get isolated and do all you can to protect yourself while operating.

If you don't feel safe because of the location, drivers or type of incident, then don't go out.

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

The day marshals are forbidden to go out onto a live track is the day I'll stop marshalling! For me, one of the most satisfying parts of the job is being able to inform race control that an incident has been dealt safely with no need for the Safety Car or a red flag – it's all about keeping things running, which is why we're there ... etc.

too.

[Steven Humphrey]

This is my 3rd season marshalling & about the 3rd time this topic has come up on here! Maybe I've been lucky but I've never been told NEVER go onto a live track. To me, that's the biggest buzz I get from marshalling. Yes, I'll do everything I can to keep safe while out there & will never go out unless i do feel relatively safe. But I know that accidents can happen, just as they can happen crossing the road (and I won't stop doing that).

As for briefings - there's probably been 2 or 3 events where I haven't been given a satisfactory briefing from the pc and/or io. I've then taken it upon myself to bombard them with questions! I did hear that the need for briefings was stressed in pc & io training this year, and rightly so.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

The day marshals are forbidden to go out onto a live track is the day I'll stop marshalling! For me, one of the most satisfying parts of the job is being able to inform race control that an incident has been dealt safely with no need for the Safety Car or a red flag – it's all about keeping things running, which is why we're there.

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

There are certainly some competent IOs that cannot act as effective Post Chiefs.

I think I'd class myself in roughly that category. I do I/O, and hopefully well, but it's not my first choice. I won't 'observe' (PC) because I know I'm not good at it.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by arnage arnie

As for briefings - there's probably been 2 or 3 events where I haven't been given a satisfactory briefing from the pc and/or io. I've then taken it upon myself to bombard them with questions! I did hear that the need for briefings was stressed in pc & io training this year, and rightly so.

Depends on what you mean by "satisfactory" really. I've got a pretty decent idea of how to be safe, and how do do the job nowadays, so I don't need a ten minute mini-training-session, every day at every meeting. As long as the PC/IO has made sure that everybody knows what they're doing and that I'm confident that (s)he has ensured that the rest of the team is competent to look after my back (and vice versa) and properly organised to take account of inexperienced people, I'm happy.

[Steven Humphrey]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

Depends on what you mean by "satisfactory" really. I've got a pretty decent idea of how to be safe, and how do do the job nowadays, so I don't need a ten minute mini-training-session, every day at every meeting. As long as the PC/IO has made sure that everybody knows what they're doing and that I'm confident that (s)he has ensured that the rest of the team is competent to look after my back (and vice versa) and properly organised to take account of inexperienced people, I'm happy.

By satisfactory, I mean more than 'you all know what you're doing'! I did a couple of meetings very early on in my marshalling 'career' where I wasn't asked of my level of experience, which I found quite shocking. The thing is, although I (and most others) know the basics, different posts can throw up different problems. So if a PC or IO has experience at that particular post (and most do, I've found) it's in their & our interests that any unusual problems associated with that post are passed on. Knowing where cars are more likely to go off or hit barriers is quite handy to know!

[Beardy359]

Having done incident for more years than I dare to admit, I don't think I have ever been told not to go out on a live track. For the first (?) years we did not have the luxury of safety cars and just got on with it IF we felt it was safe, if not we waited for the powers that be to stop the race.Now it seems the slightest risk brings out the safety car and everybody waits to get involved, BUT more serious incidents can be dealt with without a race stop. Personally I am happy to go trackside when I think it safe, usually early in a race while there is still a "dead" space on the track, but I tend to keep an eye on the race and know where these are-something which does not seem so common amongst "newer" marshals.

On the subject of briefings, if I don't get one I will ask for one as this is the only way to know how the Post Chief or IO wants things run.

Best briefing quote:"There will be some races with rolling starts, they will be the one's where they don't stop on the grid"

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by arnage arnie

By satisfactory, I mean more than 'you all know what you're doing'!

That can sometimes be enough! The shortest IO briefing I've ever done was "You all know me, you know the way I work. Play safe, have fun". That was with a team of marshals all of whom I 'd worked with many times at a post we all knew well. However, under different circumstances I'd have said a lot more, even done the "full sermon"; the secret is to vary the briefing according to who you've got in the team so as to hit the balance between giving them adequate information & talking down to them.

[Justin Moran]

I've been skitted for doing the "full sermon" as a trainee I/O. But I will always give the safety brief as a matter of course. I will stress the "only go out if you feel safe to do so" but I too assess the marshals as the day goes and help where I feel it needs my input, otherwise the Incident marshals are watched as they do their jobs. Admittedly I have limited experiences so far but Im learning too, as a regular at Oulton I have faith in the Flaggies to give good signals to the drivers to protect effectively when and if the need arises. At Anglesey the run off areas are much bigger and I brief accordingly. But it comes down to the same criterion of only do it if you feel its safe.

[Woolley]

I've been doing incident for over 20 years. I never get bored with the full briefing. It generally doesn't tell me anything new about marshalling (unless I'm somewhere unfamiliar) but it tells me an awful lot about my I/O and my colleagues and from that I start the day better informed of how I might expect an incident to be handled.

Mr C9, don't underestimate yourself. Your briefing was excellent when I worked with you. However, don't ever think a flaggie can protect you, they can only advise the drivers and hope they take that advice

[Asp]

My golden rule is always to never have hard and fast rules.

When acting up as IO or PC, I have on occasion said "Not go out onto a live track". I've said it first day trainees ("There's only the three of us, Red Badge Fred here will go out first because it's a bit of an iffy post, and shout if he needs you"); and I've even said it to the entire post (Hawthorn Hill on Brands GP was possibly the only time)
Generally though, I do agree that some people are overly reticent about going out - and like the general view here, if it's safe to do so, let's go out and give it a go. I'll normally not call out a snatch tractor until I've at least tried to give it a push...

Briefings - my view is that they can and should be very varied. Look at the experience on the post and of the post. Is there anything extra or particular that needs to be added. A "briefing" can consist of 3 experienced marshals getting together, discussing how best to run the post in lieu of an official PC / IO, and then doing it. Might not be a Post Chief giving a briefing - but everyone knows what's happening. The purpose of the briefing is so that everyone knows their job in whatever situation presents itself.

[lawnmowerman]

can we keep this basic for the benefit of trainee's? when i started marshalling in (Cough) 1989 i was as keen as mustard to jump the barrier to help assist the "More experienced," course and fire marshals. As each meeting went by, you learn through chatting and observing what others do.....i.e, let the dust settle, extent of damage to a car, what the driver is doing etc. As for yellow flags...before safety cars came along (And they still cannot get them right) Ask Lewis Hamilton eh??? I was always lead to believe that as long as a driver lifted his big toe (Showed he was slower than the previous lap) that was acceptable he had slowed down under a yellow flag. I have been in the middle of a track while F1 cars have nearly taken me with them from the draft as they went by ! All i can say is..."Listen to the briefing on post at the start of the day, ask questions if you are not sure? talk to other marshals during the day, but most of all if you dont feel safe....dont do it ! We are all volunteers and not superman or woman !