Just a Straight Vote

[Liz]

Having stretched the debate to five pages and counting, I'm interested in a straight vote between the two Camps: Which was correct, McLaren United or Bernoldi?

Add comments if you want to, of course, but most of it's been said by now, IMO anyway!

[Valve Bounce]

1. Ron Dennis should have had his faced punched.
2. Bernoldi should have let DC pass after holding him up for around 10 laps max.
3. I think the sporstmanship issue is beyond anything to do with McLaren, and could affect Williams, BAR, Jordan, Jaguar, and Renault in the future.
When all this has died down, I will post another thread to discuss the ramifications about team orders. Just let me think about this issue myself first, OK? :confused:

[Gt_R]

I believe there is no doubt that Enrique has 100% right to stay in front of DC, as long as he is on the same lap. Everyone here agrees that this is racing, and so is perfectly within his rights.

Now the sportsmanship part. Enrique is doing what he is paid to do, and sportsmanship doesnt include giving up your position to please your opponent. And remember, every single team has every single right to compete for the WDC and WCC. That is what everyone in F1 is there for. Who knows, Arrows might accelerate their developement program and win the remaining 10 races!

Think soccer. Man U vs Man City. Just because Man U is a far better team, does that mean that when Man City's striker see a Man U defender in front lining up for a tackle, he just stop running and pass the ball to the defender? Or just because Man U is fighting for the championship, thus when Cole wants to put a ball into Man City's goal, the goalkeeper of Man City, out of sportsman ship, steps aside to let the ball roll in??

Sportsmanship is not fouled in this incident on track. And it is amazing that DC actually dare demand sportsmanship when he do not show his rival's any on the track. Pointing fingers and showing the bird isnt sportsmanship, for Christ sake. Calling your opponents an "idiot" is also not sporting. And having Ron and Haug threatening and intimidating a young driver isnt sportsmanship either. In fact, i think in the US, Enrique can sue Ron and Haug for intimidation. The only breach of sportsmanship lies squarely in the Mclaren yard
DC and Ron is totally wrong. (For DC actually holding up Schumacher in Suzuka98 isnt really sporting either, esp when DC is lapped).

I agree with Liz in another post. If a car have to let a faster car past, then we do not need racing. All we need is everyone building a car, have one qualifying, then determine the WCC. then back to building a new car for the next year...

And to quote from JPM in another incident... if DC"thinks he's been granted some right by divine grace which allows him to overtake wherever he wants, I have news for him, he can forget it".

[Bononi]

I'm with VB.

[R]

And I'm with Gt_R. Why anyone should give up his position when the drivers are on the same lap is beyond me.

[Maximum F1]

If Ron Dennis and his team had of got their fingers out they would have got off the grid in the first place and wouldn't have had any need to take part in the bullying they did.
Sorry Maybe it's a bit harsh but I hate all this talk about how Bernoldi should have let Coulthard by..these drivers are payed to race not to move over and let people by...this is racing, the same thing happened Schumacher when he got stuck behind Damon Hill in, I think the 96 Monaco GP.

[Minardi fan]

Screw McLaren, GO ENRRRRRRIQUE! I think that says it all.

[Ralf's Girl]

I'd say Bernoldi was correct. No matter how far down the field you are, if you are on the same lap you're entitled to defend your position and you're not obliged to pull over and let the guy behind through, whether he's 0.4 or 4 seconds faster than you.

It was a race for position and there was no way Bernoldi should have been expected to pull over. If DC couldn't get past it was his problem.

[economy_waffle]

it woz team orders by orange arrows - bernoldi woz probably told to do this so bcos of walkinshaw's actions to get more tv coverage for orange, so bernoldi and DC were victims of this...ron should have gone to walkinshaw first NOT to intimidate bernoldi and DC should stop moaning cos it was more than a week ago!!!

[Run Free]

Originally posted by Gt_R
I believe there is no doubt that Enrique has 100% right to stay in front of DC, as long as he is on the same lap. Everyone here agrees that this is racing, and so is perfectly within his rights.

Agree.

[badoer fan]

What if it ****ed it down in the first race and the only finishers were the Minardis and Arrows? Should McLaren and Ferrari let them pass in the next and subsequent GPs, they are fighting for the championship after all?

[Total-F1]

I don't want to argue with anyone, but I think that DC was fair in being angry with Bernoldi because of the way he was driving - aside from slowing him by 4 seconds a lap - which is reason enough to be upset, he protected his line in a completely dangerous manner! It was a very crude publicity stunt on Arrows' part, but those points at least cancel out the extra 2 points TGF got in Austria....

[Don K]

Originally posted by economy_waffle
it woz team orders by orange arrows - bernoldi woz probably told to do this so bcos of walkinshaw's actions to get more tv coverage for orange, so bernoldi and DC were victims of this...

But suppose Jos and Bernoldi wouldn't have had big problems in their pit-stops.
Would David have been able to pass Jos?
Would Bernoldi have finished outside the top 6?

Don K.

[Total-F1]

What is the point of speculation like this? Does it make a difference? Why not just focus on what actually happened?

[Roy2]

I think that DinoIV 's comments in the big thread probably come close to what went down. That is, Bernoldi was following team orders. If so then Bernoldi's behavior was correct (what else could a young driver with no job security to do under these circumstances but follow team orders?), and the question becomes who was correct, McLaren or Arrows?

In the race, technically and according to the rule book, neither team was in the wrong. The blue flags shown were disregarded, but aren't they supposed to be shown only to a car about to be lapped? If this was Arrows understanding also, then perhaps they were right to await clarification from race control (which never came, by the way).

If Arrows believed, and they probably did, that JoV and DC were racing for the same points, then their actions are perfectly understandable and can't be attributed to poor sportsmanship or bloody mindedness. This is BIG business and for Arrows not to take full advantage of Mclaren' self -induced embarrassment would be soft-headed, and it seems to me that Walkinshaw is as hard as they get.

So IMO in the race Bernoldi was correct, Walkinshaw was correct, and DC made the best of a bad situation. After the race that gutless wonder Ron Dennis, instead of talking to the man Walkinshaw, bullied and browbeat the young Bernoldi. Had he spoken to Tom Walkinshaw that way he'd probably have been invited out behind the garages, and methinks he knew it.

So - Arrows were correct and McLaren, athough understandably frustrated, were wrong, stupid, gutless.

[EERO]

Roy, I see both sides of the arguement and I was ready to post that I could not reach an opinion, but you make a compelling arguement and have swayed me.


So IMO in the race Bernoldi was correct, Walkinshaw was correct, and DC made the best of a bad situation. After the race that gutless wonder Ron Dennis, instead of talking to the man Walkinshaw, bullied and browbeat the young Bernoldi. ...So - Arrows were correct and McLaren, athough understandably frustrated, were wrong, stupid, gutless

Well put.

[mac]

I have said on a previous thread that Dennis and Coulthard showed everyone who the real "idiots" are.

As Walkinshaw said, McLaren should be looking in their own backyard as to why DC was in that position.

Bernoldi's driving was in no way dangerous. Anyone who suggests so has massive problems.

Coulthard only really had one serious "go" at passing Bernoldi (into Mirabeau). His attitude that, "Hey, I'm David Coulthard, don't you know who I am? I drive a McLaren. You other little scallops GET OUT OF MY WAY NOW!" disgusts me.

Verstappen managed to pass a few cars, why couldn't the great DC get past a car 4 seconds a lap slower than him.

And yes, the whole Bernoldi thing has cost DC the championship. It has showed that he is not willing to fight for the WDC, and unless it's given to him on a platter, he won't even get close to TGF.

[Gt_R]

mac...i'm with you on this one!

David seem to have the atitude that he is top, and expects things to be handed to him, instead of him fighting for it.

Its a wonder how people who critise MS attitude can actually like DC's ...pure hypocritical.

And about how some suggest that Enrique is dangerous....i really cant see how that is the case...ive been watching the tape 3 times, and i thought that Mclaren only have one possible overtaking spot. And that everytime DC wants to overtake, what i see is ONE clean move by the Arrows to keep DC behind. Moreover, DC's overtaking attempts are all pretty lame if you ask me...they are neither incisive nor decisive.

Somehow, if you ask me, i believe some pro-mclaren people think that all protecting of positions against their beloved silver (broken) arrow is against the rule...They complained when Schumacher block DC at the starts, they complain when Enrique holds his positions... if Mclaren and their fans think that "thinks (they're) granted some right by divine grace which allows (them) to overtake wherever he wants" I have news for them, they can forget it.

But thinking back at the race...ITS MONACO GP isnt it!...all the great sponsors are there, all the riches and glamour... to see the MCLAREN OF DC STALLING AGAIN ON THE GRID...TO SEE MIKA RETIRE WITH YET ANOTHER CAR FAILURE...TO SEE A SO CALLED SUPERIOR MCLAREN STUCK BEHIND AN ARROWS...seesh...i guess its causing too much embarrassment for Ron and Haug...sponsors must be blushing now...oh gawd...and so Ron and DC just do what they does best for the whole of their lives...PUSH THE BLAME TO SOMEONE ELSE...AND TAKE THE LIMELIGHT OF THEMSELVE...maybe..just maybe...no body would realise then how badly the Mclarens performed at this most important business circuit!

Sorry Ron..you can cheat the media, the whole world...not me...you sinister big bully!

[senna12]

I'm disappointed in David. He was quick to state earlier that he didn't have anyone giving him points this year, yet he's all over Enrique for not moving over, and thus basically giving him more points.
I also agree that David never really made a serious move at Mirabeau, the only place he even tried. He should have been alongside immediately after the righthander, and forcefully stated his intentions sraightaway. He always left it until it was too late, and Enrique took the inside, which is his right, seeing as this is a motor RACE...
Anyway, McLaren have no one but themselves to blame for being in that mess in the first place, and had no business going after Bernoldi, so I guess he's the winner, unless, of course, the poor bugger finds himself blackballed after Arrows. All up to Lord Ecclestone I suppose.....

[DNQ]

Enrique Bernoldi. He had every right to do what he did.

[RALFANATOR]

I'am with GTR & DNQ on this one it make's no diff that its at MONACO
or not and I don't give a ratsass if he was the pole sitter or not
he started behind him as it turned out and it DC job to get pass not
Bernoldi job to let him pass . It's called racing and defending your position is part of racing

Q If EB was on pole & then started last only to catch up to DC
wuold DC let him by

A LOL LOL LOL that's funny

[Don K]

Originally posted by Total-F1
What is the point of speculation like this? Does it make a difference? Why not just focus on what actually happened?

What I'm saying is this: Their team-strategy might have brought the Arrows-team 3 or 5 points. You can not condemn their strategy just because mechanical problems made it fail.

Don K.

[steve nielsen]

It's very simple actualy: if Jos did'nt have that fuel pressure problem at his stop he just might have come out of the pits in front of DC and might have scored points.....

[Liz]

And Arrows has to get points in order to get a share of the money, don't they, for transport and the like? DC doesn't have to worry about that kind of thing.

[badoer fan]

If u don't get any points, but are still 10th, like Minardi last year for example, do u still get the money?