[BTCC] BTCC 2019 - Snetterton - Rounds 16, 17, 18 + testing

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

BTW why does Plato moan about BMW and Honda engines when Tingram absolutly dominated with the same TOCA unit....

He'd look a bit foolish claiming that his own engine had too much power!

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

he could have a legit win this time



BTW why does Plato moan about BMW and Honda engines when Tingram absolutly dominated with the same TOCA unit....

Can't publicly say the engine in Toms car is good can he as his Vauxhall is the same unit. Plato, and he isn't unique in this, will always talk up other peoples kit as better. Giving them an advantage. Brinksmanship. He ain't subtle but he is who he is and likely always will be.

[Alfisti]

I'm going to stick my head up again (and likely get shot at) but

A) Plato had the rubbish dog slow hard tyre

B) Ash had the soft sticky pretty quick but will die on it's ass if you push it hard tyre.

Therefore Plato in front is going to defend damned hard. Likely take the Senna vs Prost Japan '90 mentality (where Senna drove Prost straight off the track at corner 1 lap 1 as he felt wronged because the pole position was on the wrong side of the track).

When overtaken out of the pram flies the dummy to screams of "not fair".

JP might describe events differently but this is my guesstimate. Throw in some red mist and the Subaru being garbage in a straight line and that is a perfect recipe for argy bargy.

Sutton put himself in a stupid position on the outside. Given what had gone before that was asking for it. Whether Plato misjudged, outbreaked himself or thought "f you" isn't relevant to putting a kick me sticker on your butt and putting your butt in front of your nemises foot.

If Sutton had played smarter and took the longer race view I believe he would have pulled a move and left JP behind. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Sutton did bang Plato though, not as much and not as hard.

Probably just as well Anthony Reid is long since retired...

Let's hope JP gets the message and either takes it on the chin like Sonic and plays nicely or retires.

Would have liked that to have been same tyres on Plato and Sutton and clean. That would have been way better viewing.

[Akrapovic]

*shots fired*

Suttons only safe move is to not try and pass JP. Is that what we want from motorsport? He was on the outside because Butcher was dragging by him. He couldn't go inside. So should he just not bother racing, because if he does, JP will drive into him again?

The second accident shouldn't have happened because in any fair race Suttons first pass would've stuck.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Sutton put himself in a stupid position on the outside. Given what had gone before that was asking for it. Whether Plato misjudged, outbreaked himself or thought "f you" isn't relevant to putting a kick me sticker on your butt and putting your butt in front of your nemises foot.

Is Oliphant being stupid in the position below?

[Craner Curves]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

But deliberate argy bargy is just wrong.

Agreed. We seem to be in the minority according to social media though. I've just watched a couple of mid 90s review videos and there were just as many penalties then, but the current generation don't understand it.

[VXDave]

Very disappointed with Potato's punt into the back of Ash - place should've been handed back immediately.

Regarding Potato tapping Smiley out of the way, what are people's views on him being penalised for that whilst Turks gets away with a similar move on Tingram? I don't buy the theory that it's because Tingram's car was hobbled - it was in the braking zone, almost identical to the Potato - Smiley incident. Personally, I think Potato and Turks should have got idental penalties, but I guess the adjudicators have better evidence than us as to why the incidents were not the same.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

Agreed. We seem to be in the minority according to social media though. I've just watched a couple of mid 90s review videos and there were just as many penalties then, but the current generation don't understand it.

That's because unless you were there and willing to hang around the race control building for a bulletin, or for Autosprout/MSN to come along later in the week, nobody except a small number of real enthusiasts really knew (or cared) about penalties.

Nowadays we know what the clerk of the course had for breakfast before he did, and which underpants the drivers chose to wear for each race from the available set provided by your local gentleman's outfitters before they've got changed for the next race.

Sometimes the immediacy of the Internet wrecks things and makes everyone feel like everything is new, always. It isn't. Many of us on here have been around the sun a fair few times and have seen this all before.

My view? Plato, Neal & co are in the twilight of their BTCC careers. Sutton's is only just warming up.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by VXDave

Very disappointed with Potato's punt into the back of Ash - place should've been handed back immediately.

Regarding Potato tapping Smiley out of the way, what are people's views on him being penalised for that whilst Turks gets away with a similar move on Tingram? I don't buy the theory that it's because Tingram's car was hobbled - it was in the braking zone, almost identical to the Potato - Smiley incident. Personally, I think Potato and Turks should have got idental penalties, but I guess the adjudicators have better evidence than us as to why the incidents were not the same.

I tend to agree with you that I don't really buy the Toyota being slow. It was a braking zone. He was slow on the exit, but the incident was before that.

I do think intention is important. Had JP not driven into Sutton (twice) after the Smiley incident then I think it's easier to say no penalty. Or had Turk been a repeat offender, then it's easier to say penalty.

A driver hitting a car is one thing. A driver hitting 3 cars is another. I do think the context is important.

[Jiiiiiiim]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

he could have a legit win this time



BTW why does Plato moan about BMW and Honda engines when Tingram absolutly dominated with the same TOCA unit....

Indeed, he was flying on the soft tyre, lost 2nd gear, then the box jammed altogether. Showed race winning pace, definite podium lost and could well have been a win.

[Apex Predator]

Originally Posted by Jiiiiiiim

Indeed, he was flying on the soft tyre, lost 2nd gear, then the box jammed altogether. Showed race winning pace, definite podium lost and could well have been a win.

Reminded me a bit of when Lea Wood lost out on a podium back in 2012.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Is Oliphant being stupid in the position below?

Attachment 53734

I'd say not. But the context of the Honda being driven by a more respectful driver leads me to say that. I'm also not aware of these two gents trading paint recently, which also leads me to this conclusion.

JP sometimes, as per yesterday, drives like a twit in the overtaking lane in a flash German motor because the road is his. Reading his comments today he doesn't get it still.

I still stay of the opinion that if Ash was aware of the AmD car on the inside he would have been better off hanging fire to challenge with less danger at another corner. But of course I do not know if Ash could have even seen the other car from where he was.

[Jason Plato]

Unfortunately for me there are some people on this forum that are ‘obsessively active’ shall we say, in their online criticism of me! Which is fine, I certainly won’t loose sleep, we all have our fav drivers and teams and also the inverse. What amuses me is that these folk do not listen to both sides as rational people, they have their opinion and will not listen and/or accept what ever is presented to them unless it fits with their own opinion or agenda. it’s a bit like the Brexit debate.... so many people these days won’t accept facts from people that are much more qualified than they are if those facts don’t fit with their chosen narrative or position! Huh, nowt as funny as folk I guess. Care to comment crmalcolm, akrapovic, s Griffin, PORSCHE 962fan to name but a few. Better still, why not come to a race as my guests, you never know, you might actually learn something.. Drop me a tweet if you want to look at facts! Or not if you don’t. Nite nite x

[Mondeo Man33]

Originally Posted by Jason Plato

Unfortunately for me there are some people on this forum that are ‘obsessively active’ shall we say, in their online criticism of me! Which is fine, I certainly won’t loose sleep, we all have our fav drivers and teams and also the inverse. What amuses me is that these folk do not listen to both sides as rational people, they have their opinion and will not listen and/or accept what ever is presented to them unless it fits with their own opinion or agenda. it’s a bit like the Brexit debate.... so many people these days won’t accept facts from people that are much more qualified than they are if those facts don’t fit with their chosen narrative or position! Huh, nowt as funny as folk I guess. Care to comment crmalcolm, akrapovic, s Griffin, PORSCHE 962fan to name but a few. Better still, why not come to a race as my guests, you never know, you might actually learn something.. Drop me a tweet if you want to look at facts! Or not if you don’t. Nite nite x

Well said JP. It wouldn’t be the same championship without you. Thank you for entertaining us for so many years and for your contribution to British motorsport. Looking forward to reading your book next month.

[Akrapovic]

I was wondering if this would happen. I'm glad it has.

Originally Posted by Jason Plato

Unfortunately for me there are some people on this forum that are ‘obsessively active’ shall we say, in their online criticism of me! Which is fine, I certainly won’t loose sleep, we all have our fav drivers and teams and also the inverse. What amuses me is that these folk do not listen to both sides as rational people, they have their opinion and will not listen and/or accept what ever is presented to them unless it fits with their own opinion or agenda. it’s a bit like the Brexit debate.... so many people these days won’t accept facts from people that are much more qualified than they are if those facts don’t fit with their chosen narrative or position! Huh, nowt as funny as folk I guess. Care to comment crmalcolm, akrapovic, s Griffin, PORSCHE 962fan to name but a few. Better still, why not come to a race as my guests, you never know, you might actually learn something.. Drop me a tweet if you want to look at facts! Or not if you don’t. Nite nite x

Care to comment crmalcolm, akrapovic,

Sure, I'll give it a go.

As stated here, I'm no fan of Ash Sutton. I don't know why, but I've never warmed to him. I have no logical reason, but I just can't say I'm a fan of him. I also criticised Suttons nerf of you into the final corner and think that was worthy of a strike. Perhaps not a penalty as positions did not change hands, but certainly a strike.

I am however a fan of Turkington. Don't know why, I have no logical reason, but I am. And I also think Turks should have been given a penalty for the nerf of Tingram into T2. He moved a car out of the way to take the lead. I don't buy the "Toyota was slow" comment, because i was in a braking zone, not a straight. The only logical reason I can see for no penalty on that one is there was no repeat offense. Unlike someone else...

So in terms of my stance - I call it like I see it. I called it for drivers I'm not a fan or, and I called it for drivers I am a fan of. If you think you're getting more criticism than others then perhaps there's a reason beyond "people don't like me". Perhaps it's because you commit the crimes more than others. Certainly, BTCC seemed to think so, as nobody was more penalised than you during the Snetterton weekend. Why was that Jason? Care to comment?

Better still, why not come to a race as my guests, you never know, you might actually learn something.. Drop me a tweet if you want to look at facts!

You won't remember (fair enough - long time, and many guests ago), I actually was a guest of yours (well, actually Renault) back in the 90s. I have no desire to repeat that experience. Unless Alain Menu is around again.

Why does it need to be a tweet? So that the Twitter army can be summoned as a defense? Poor Ash is finding out that being driven into will get him abused on Twitter. I prefer my correspondence to be done here since we have a moderation team who will enforce rules and stop insults and threats been thrown around from a mob. So no, I won't move platform to have a discussion - I'm having it here thank you.

As for facts, sure here's the facts.

You hit Smiley at the first opportunity. Literally, the first braking zone that was available you hit him and moved him out of the way.

You hit Sutton at the first opportunity. Literally, the first braking zone that was available you hit him and moved him out of the way.

You hit Sutton again at the first opportunity. This one is more likely to be more of a mistake, but the result was the same. You hit him and took him out of the race for the lead.

There are the facts. That's what happened. BTCC seemes to agree, since you were penalised. Or are they wrong too, Jason?

Nite nite. x

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

I'd say not. But the context of the Honda being driven by a more respectful driver leads me to say that. I'm also not aware of these two gents trading paint recently, which also leads me to this conclusion.

OK - I think what we agree on then is that it was the fact that Plato was the car on the inside, rather than the position itself that was the stupid part.

You use an interesting phrase in your reply - respectful. As I said previously, it is the lack of respect for fellow drivers that I have a big problem with in BTCC at the moment. A driver should not have make their decisions based on whether a driver will show them respect or not - both on and off the track. All that is going to develop is a bullying culture within the sport which is never healthy.

Originally Posted by Jason Plato

Care to comment crmalcolm […] Drop me a tweet if you want to look at facts!

Happy to converse on the subject here - particularly with regards to the lack of respect shown in the paddock at the moment.

Referring to Sutton as a silly lad, and that he learnt a lesson - is that really the talk that an experienced driver in the paddock should use? And do you think that it is acceptable for a driver to have their race ruined when learning lessons?

Other drivers are also guilty of showing a lack of respect. Sutton approaching you after the race (from the pictures I have seen) was wrong, it would have been better for discussions to be had in private. Neal was also wrong for his actions after R3 at Oulton Park..... You are not alone in facing criticism, so don't take it too personally.

I do have a question - and wonder why the facts could not be presented on here, and need to be on twitter - what evidence do you have for the engine in your car being too low on power when it has taken victories in other cars recently, including two at Snetterton?

Your team's post also refers to Sutton passing you twice after contact in T12 and T7 - is there any screen grab or still shot showing this contact that you could demonstrate?

You criticise a few people in your post for not listening to both sides - I fail to see anything in your post that presents an alternative side to the criticism you have received? In fact, the offer of being a guest or to discuss on twitter comes across a bit as the typical line of a bully - wanting to take the matter into their own environment where they can control the outcome rather than continuing matters in front of the audience here.

[porsche962fan]

Tingram looked perfectly confortable even on the straights with TOCA engine even if chased by a Honda and the notoriously fast in straight line Ford , to the point that he wasn't really under threat at the end of the straight , he didn't even need to defend the corner most of the time






and that Toyota is also a hatchback

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

Tingram looked perfectly confortable even on the straights with TOCA engine even if chased by a Honda and the notoriously fast in straight line Ford , to the point that he wasn't really under threat at the end of the straight , he didn't even need to defend the corner most of the time






and that Toyota is also a hatchback

The Honda in the picture has the same motor as the Toyota and Vauxhall?...

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

The Honda in the picture has the same motor as the Toyota and Vauxhall?...

Ops didn't see the works car tucked up behind

[porsche962fan]

BTW what was here ???? with a car that is already half lengh inside







poor Jordan trying to stay on track with wheels tuned left

[crmalcolm]

Facts from speed trap figures (I2):

Q	R1	R2	R3
Ford	Ford	BMW	TOCA
BMW	TOCA	Honda	BMW
TOCA	BMW	Ford	BMW
Ford	BMW	TOCA	Honda
Honda	TOCA	Ford	Honda

It is clear that the Ford, BMW and Honda engines can be quick. But it is also true that the TOCA engine can be just as quick, depending on setup.
The one engine that is always at the bottom of the speed trap figures - the Subaru.

** I know that the power is not the only factor to contribute to a speed trap figure, but it does give an indication **

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

** I know that the power is not the only factor to contribute to a speed trap figure, but it does give an indication **

the TOCA engine didn't do too bad for AMD they actually have better results this season than team Dynamics with their Honda engine


Tingram didn't have much problems on the straight even against the BMW despite full ballast

[porsche962fan]

for the ones bashing Colin Turkington for move on Tigram he got a get out of jail free card


Tingram

The performance we were able to put in in race one was absolutely stonking and I feel I was controlling race two until the issue with the wastegate. I’m sure we would have won that one too

[MagicBoy]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

for the ones bashing Colin Turkington for move on Tigram he got a get out of jail free card


Tingram

Sorry, how does the wastegate affect the braking into a corner of the car behind?

[porsche962fan]

if you watch footage Tingram already slowed suddently on the short straight just before the corner came

he was hit already before corner ,after the corner hoards of cars got passed him easy