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Old 23 Jun 2006, 15:40 (Ref:1639859)   #51
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Originally Posted by Alex E
The first car built was E24-RA1-001 ( as you correctly say this was the Cheylesmore car which Stuck crashed & was rebuilt with a new body, #29...) and the last car was E24-RA2-89 built in early `86. So the last RA1 was # 33 & the first RA2 was # 34.
I hope that makes sense.
It makes sense if Walton is wrong!
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Old 23 Jun 2006, 16:04 (Ref:1639865)   #52
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Yes...
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Old 23 Jun 2006, 16:16 (Ref:1639872)   #53
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Originally Posted by chunterer
You mention the Belgian cars (one of which was the ex Eggenberger/CC spare mentioned above) and those Bastos backed cars were usually a force and wasn't it Juma and not Jumet?
Both- apparently there were Belgian BMW teams under both names- Juma who ran the Bastos cars, as you said, and Jumet Motors- not sure whether there was any relationship between the two. Photos from Spa 86 on Racingsportscars.com:

Juma Team/BMW Belgium:
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-08-03-018.jpg

Jumet Motors:
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-08-03-036.jpg

I think the RBM team who currently run Andy Priaulx in WTCC have some relationship to Juma
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Old 23 Jun 2006, 16:19 (Ref:1639873)   #54
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Ok, so can we put even more flesh on this now, because I think that this is rapidly becoming a good subject for the Chassis Archive. Can we start linking chassis nos to names, subsequent histories, current whereabouts etc. There seems to be a lot of knowledge out there. If we can bring this together in a structured way, that would be brilliant. Anyone like to kick of with their known list (he said looking Alex's way!), or should we continue the way we are and do a bit of collation further on down the line?
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Old 23 Jun 2006, 16:49 (Ref:1639885)   #55
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Oh dear, what have we started here.
I will have a look through my files & get you startede over the weekend.
Regarding the Unbeatable BMW books, Jeremy at the time did not have enough information to go into the history of individual cars. Unlike Porsches for instance, where you can buy a book that tells you every cars chassis number, colour, owner, etc,...with BMW`s it is just not like that. Maybe one day if we keep this up.
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Old 23 Jun 2006, 17:47 (Ref:1639906)   #56
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Hi everyone.

Nice to see my photos at racingsportscars linking up to this thread.

Going back a long way on this thread, Stucks' early pace at the 1984 Spa 24 hour was mentioned, but Jean-Pierre Jarier was even more spectacular and hurled his bimmer up to first place inside the first ninety minutes! The next morning there was a crazy dice between Weaver and Winkelhock which had me very confused. The gap between them kept fluctuating and only when I read the report and also asked James about it several years later did I understand why.

They had spent approximately an hour dicing and seemed to be flying off the circuit at every opportunity, but the dice provided enough evidence to Stuck and Questor that James could drive and deserved to be in the team. Winkelhock was a little bt peeved that the number 3 driver of the Scnitzer could easily keep up with him, not quite what he had expected.

The Ted Grace, Muir, Gartland partnership had started in 1970 IIRC with the Wiggins Teape Camaro and lasted until the untimely death of Yogi in 1982. And yes, that did include the Alpina CSL of 1973, has anyone got a good photo of that car at the British GP I wonder?

Does anyone remember the Bastos 635 in the advertising hoardings at Zolder in 1984 and Stefan Belloff rolling another one in practice (Zolder 1983 I think) because the quallies gripped too well!

Happy days.

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Old 23 Jun 2006, 18:14 (Ref:1639926)   #57
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I checked some info regarding the 635`s that raced in the UK.
Some time in the winter of `83-4 CC Racing got an ex Eggenburger car that was driven in the ETCC by Kelleners / Grano & they used that car in the BTCC in `84. Not sure on the Ch #.
Grace / Gartland received one new car in `83 (#17) for the BTCC
CC Racing also got two new cars for `84 (#37 and 39) both were supplied in white.
Grace racing got another new car in `84 (#46)
and BMW GB bought a new car (#62) in `85 that was delivered in red. Should be easy to identify that one.
Not sure how this will tally with Ians info from a completely different source ?
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Old 23 Jun 2006, 19:04 (Ref:1639968)   #58
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That seems to fit with Ian's post pretty well-

#17- the original Sytner car from 1983
#46- the second Sytner car from 84- both going subsequently to John Morton in NZ

The 3 CC Motorsport/BMW GB cars-
one ex-Eggenberger (chassis no unknown), then sold to Sytner and subsequently Jumet in Belgium
2 new cars, #39 & #39- both sold to Sytner in 85, one then going to Mike Newman, the other to Australia for Charlie O'Brien

#62, the red car for BMW GB in 85 is a mystery though- as Chunterer said, the BMW GB team didn't appear after 84, so why would they have ordered a new 635 during 1985?- I suspect there's an interesting story behind that one...

Last edited by KA; 23 Jun 2006 at 19:09.
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Old 23 Jun 2006, 19:36 (Ref:1639988)   #59
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Regarding Charlie O'Brien's ex-Sytner car that came to Australia:

This is from the book "BATHURST 1985/86";

"No. 22, the only righthand drive BMW in the field, was brought to Australia just before the running of the Castrol 500. Co-owned by former HDT driver Charlie O'Brien, and London-based Australian businessman/race patron Erle McRae, who were closely linked linked in O'Brien's Pacific open-wheeler days, this car was a Schnitzer replica campaigned for BMW GB in the 1984 British Saloon Car Championship and some rounds of the European Touring Car Championship by British touring car ace Frank Sytner.

Gold Coast based O'Brien had the car rebuilt for Australia by it;s usual British preparer, Ted Grace International, who lent the McRae/O'Brien team one of his British mechanics for Bathurst....."


The Castrol 500 at Sandown is held in September, which fits in with this quote earlier about the car coming to Australia after the '85 TT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KA
...and the second goes to Charlie O'Brien in Australia- presumably post-TT, but in time for Bathurst.
Also running at Bathurst in 1985 was an ex-Schnitzer 1984 car owned then (and now) by Simon Emmerling. He still races the car today, only it has a V8 engine in the front...............
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Old 23 Jun 2006, 22:34 (Ref:1640076)   #60
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Funnily enough, I've just been looking at my copy of the same book...
7 635s competed at Bathurst in 1985- 3 were locally built by JPS Team BMW-
No.1 for Richards/Longhurst, described as the team's first Group A car, originally built for Bathurst 84
No.31 for Crichton/Fury- built for Crichton in late 84
No.20 Jim Keogh's ex-JPS car- originally a JPS team Group C car from 1982, rebuilt to Group A as the team's spare car for 85 before being sold to Glen Molloy and then Keogh
3 were ex-Schnitzer:
No.21-for Ravaglia/Cecotto- imported by Greg Siddle, described as the 2nd-place car from Spa 85. Also appeared at Bathurst in 86
No.23- Simon Emmerling's car, as described above by Racer69- Dieter Quester's 84-season car, acquired by Emmerling in early 85
No.3 Kent Baigent's NZ-based car- bought from Schnitzer in October 84, and I believe written off in NZ in late 85
and finally O'Brien's ex-CC Motorsport, ex-Sytner car. Bearing in mind that the TT was usually early September, then if it ran at the TT with Sytner, then they couldn't have wasted much time in re-preparing it and shipping it to Australia in time for Sandown later the same month...

Can anyone match this up to chassis numbers?- we know from Alex's info that the O'Brien car must have been either #37 or #39

Last edited by KA; 23 Jun 2006 at 22:42.
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Old 24 Jun 2006, 01:10 (Ref:1640125)   #61
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The top picture is Bathurst 1985, when this BMW was run by Charlie O'Brien and John English (no.. not the singer..)

The second picture is Charlie O'Brien again, at Honda Corner at the much loved Amaroo Park (now housing estates) in 1986....

If you notice closely, and I didnt till i looked at them just now, the top car is RHD, the bottom LHD....

Charlie O'Brien had access to a Bob Jane T Marts Schnitzer car in 1986, and an ex-JPS BMW 635Csi.... I wonder which of these this is....
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Old 24 Jun 2006, 05:42 (Ref:1640162)   #62
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this car got about

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex E
The first car built was E24-RA1-001 ( as you correctly say this was the Cheylesmore car which Stuck crashed & was rebuilt with a new body, #29...) and the last car was E24-RA2-89 built in early `86. So the last RA1 was # 33 & the first RA2 was # 34.
I hope that makes sense.
I meant you were correct about my name.

The Bob Jane (sold originally to Greg Siddle) car that was second at Spa, Bathurst & Fuji in 1985 is E24-RA2-55
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Old 24 Jun 2006, 08:33 (Ref:1640189)   #63
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I have information that says #55 was destroyed in February `85. ( a strange month to be crashd in Europe.....!.) Are you sure it still exists?
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Old 24 Jun 2006, 08:41 (Ref:1640191)   #64
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Good morning everyone,I have just awoken feeling rather dismal after last night's college reunion to find while I was having fun,you guys had been busy again. So here are my latest gems and apologies for the standard of my typing which understandably is slower than usual.At the time that the 635 was in its pomp I hatched an idea to write a book and contacted the then main Group A reporter for Autosport Joe Saward.We hit it off really well and he became a kind of personal roving reporter for me and I would get wonderful letters from exotic places such as Anchorage in Alaska where he was on a stopover to Fuji for the big touring car race there. At other times he would write and just to increase my jealousy say that he was just off to interview Schnitzer's Charly Lamm or Hans Stuck and so on.We decided to jointly write a book and had got a degree of support from BMW and Charly at Schnitzer. As a result Joe kindly provided me with all the latest gossip as well as programmes and magazines from all over the world.Sadly the book never materialised because the lure of Formula One was to great and for several seasons he followed that circus around the world. I did however gain a wonderful insight into what was really a glorified 'club'series of events with much greater camaraderie,humour and fun than probably takes place today and that is why we are still today looking back with such fondness at this era is it not? At the time I did try to create a full chassis list which I will look at again in the light of all your above threads. It is like trying to knit fog at times however due to printing errors,reporters mistakes and also the desire for some teams not to reveal information.On one occasion a driver at Silverstone flatly denied to accept the chassis history I put to him even though I knew I was correct.As I wandered off another team owner stopped me and said the previous driver was worried that I was something to do with the taxmen which is why he clammed up!!
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Old 24 Jun 2006, 08:53 (Ref:1640195)   #65
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Good morning Alex,I am looking right now at a letter I received from Greg Siddle who was team boss at Goold Motorsport who ran the car with chassis number 55 in Australia. In the letter, he confirms thar this car had not run since Adelaide'85 and had subsequently been on display around Australia.The car was then rebuilt to'86 spec and was then raced by Charlie O'Brien/Gary Rogers at the Sandown 500,Bathurst and then ran in the South Pacific series before being shipped to Fuji where Pirro/O'Brien drove it to second place.The car retured to OZ and was sold to the Bob Jane Corporation.He finished by saying there were no plans for the car to race again.The letter was dated 11th November 1986!
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Old 24 Jun 2006, 09:03 (Ref:1640202)   #66
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To answer GTR Magics query, in May'87 Frank Gardner wrote to me and in the course of the letter he stated that in 1986 a car was sold to Charlie O'Brien via Archibald Motorsport who ran a 635 with some success for New Zealander Trevor Crowe. The car was built in '84 by the JPS team of Gardner,unfortunately,Frank never mentioned chassis numbers but simply called them chassis A,B,C and so on.Trevor Crowe wrote in March '87 and confirmed that Charlie O'Brien had bought a car from them and said that it was the first of two which Archibalds had owned and was the car originally driven by Neville Crichton in '85/6 as part of the JPS/Gardner team.I hope that is some help.Ian.
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Old 24 Jun 2006, 09:07 (Ref:1640203)   #67
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Hmmm amusing ian,

I have an idea as to whom you might be referring to re the denied history driver (assuming it was a BTCC Silverstone round?) and it could probably only be one of 2 people?!!!


KA, indeed yes, that no 62 1985 purchase by BMW GB is curious. AFAICR no red shelled car ever ran in the BTCC. I just wonder if anyone will actually know the story behind this, assuming it was originally destined for a 1985 BTCC campaign..

I just wonder if that car was supposed to be a further CC car for '85? As ian and alex have both said that Frank Sytner didn't get hold of the 1984 CC/BMW GB cars until early in 1985...

This info kind of suggests that the decision to pull out of BTCC by BMW GB may not have been entirely what they had planned?? Maybe GB had assumed that the partnership would continue into 1985 but that CC's other plans (that didn't materialise) affected the importers strategy and pulled the rug from under their feet?

But it what's to say that it wasn't just delivered here for some reason but ended up doing the ETC or a domestic series somewhere?
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Old 24 Jun 2006, 09:17 (Ref:1640209)   #68
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It's me again!! Each time I turn a page in my 635 file I find another snippet which helps with a previous query. This one relates to the Sytner/BMW GB car.To recap this car was the original Eggenberger built car which Frank had owned,it eventually passed into the hands of Graham Lorimer having earlier been race by ex-motorbike ace Graham Crosby/Lew Mckinnon.Lorimer rebuilt the car using some replacement bits from the destroyed ex-Schnitzer car of Kent Baigent.He ran the car in'86(its debut being that years Sandown Park 500)and in '87.The car was chassis number RA001. The destroyed donor car was chassis #35 ex- BMW Technik/Schnitzer which Baigent bought via his Keneal Promotions company. I have no idea of this 'hybrid' cars whereabouts now but am pretty certain it did not race again after Pukekohe'87.
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Old 24 Jun 2006, 09:34 (Ref:1640215)   #69
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I personally feel that BMW GB had seen the writing on the wall becuse although spectacular, their cars had not really set the world alight in the BTCC and they would have known about the coming M3 which was always going to be more suited to the sprint format in our championship.The 635 was really all about endurance,reliability and strength in numbers rather than the balls out 20-30 minutes of crash bang wallop which the BTCC was?I guess they would have reasoned that it did not make sense to expect winning performance from a car that was soon to be outdated.The BMW GB teams cars were the original left hand drive Eggenberger built version plus two which they constructed and were known as CC29 and CC30. The first of these was used by James Weaver,thr second being that crashed heavily by Vince Woodman on its debut at Donington(this happened right in front of my wife and I,much to her alarm because it was a big impact!!I have photos of the wreck being towed away).Dave Cook wrote to me and explained the cause of the crash was due to faulty brake discs and a stuck throttle at the same time!! The car was then rebuilt around a new shell and a stronger steel cage.They felt this car was so new it was given the chassis number CC31.The Eggenberger built car was only ever a spare for the team.
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Old 24 Jun 2006, 09:42 (Ref:1640218)   #70
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Regarding KA's query about the Juma team,the name is a combination of JUlien MAmpaey who formed the team in Belgium.He is the father of Bart Mampaey whose RBM team is indeed responsible for Andy Priaulx's car currently.Juma were a very successful team while Jumet Motors was much smaller and was really out of its depths running with old machines and it has to be said rather slow drivers!They tended to only run at the Spa 24 hours and the Zolder ETC events.
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Old 24 Jun 2006, 10:09 (Ref:1640225)   #71
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Damn!! It's threatening to rain which means unfortunately I cannot possibly risk mowing the lawns!! Here are what I think are chassis numbers but I am prepared to be shot down on some of them! Schnitzer built...1)#7 1983, Original Teile car,now in BMW museum Munich;2)#13.1983 Eterna car sold to Serge Power in Belgium and then to Belgian Michel de Deyne;3)#31,1983 MeisterfotoThe car damaged by Bellof at Zolder,sold to Volker Strycek/Gubin Motorsport;4)#54,1984built for Portugese customer Robert Giannone and destroyed in fire at Estoril'85;5)#34,1984 Original Teile car of Stuck/Quester sold to Australian Simon Emmerling in April '85;6)#35,1984 M-Technik car of Ravaglia/Berger sold to Keneal Promotions in Australia in October '84;7)#58,1984 Wurth car of Ravaglia/Berger,sold to Balcanca in Bulgaria (I told you it existed!!);8)#50,1985 customer car for Portugese Manuel Fernandes;9)#74,1985 customer car for Yoshimi Enterprises in Japan;10)#55,1985 M-Technik car sold to Goold Motorsport in Australia;11)#60,1985 Original Teile car,also used in early '86;12)#75,1985 M-Technik car;13)#77,#78,#79 used in 1986 by the team but no knowledge of what happenrd to them as the M3 then came on stream.Other chassis to follow!
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Old 24 Jun 2006, 10:27 (Ref:1640229)   #72
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For those interested in seeing pictures of these wonderful cars ,take a look at these two sites..1)Frank de Jong's wonderful efforts on www.touringcarracing.net amd the equally wonderful www.racingsportscars.com which now has a touring car section.Many will already know and love these sites but it may be a pleasant surprise for some.Amongst others you will find some of the work of Glyn Parham who was kind enough to lend me all his negatives a while back.How are you Glyn,we lost contact some time ago.I hope you are well?Perhaps we can resume swapping modelling ideas?
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Old 24 Jun 2006, 10:42 (Ref:1640232)   #73
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Originally Posted by ian beckett
I personally feel that BMW GB had seen the writing on the wall becuse although spectacular, their cars had not really set the world alight in the BTCC and they would have known about the coming M3 which was always going to be more suited to the sprint format in our championship.The 635 was really all about endurance,reliability and strength in numbers rather than the balls out 20-30 minutes of crash bang wallop which the BTCC was?I guess they would have reasoned that it did not make sense to expect winning performance from a car that was soon to be outdated.The BMW GB teams cars were the original left hand drive Eggenberger built version plus two which they constructed and were known as CC29 and CC30. The first of these was used by James Weaver,thr second being that crashed heavily by Vince Woodman on its debut at Donington(this happened right in front of my wife and I,much to her alarm because it was a big impact!!I have photos of the wreck being towed away).Dave Cook wrote to me and explained the cause of the crash was due to faulty brake discs and a stuck throttle at the same time!! The car was then rebuilt around a new shell and a stronger steel cage.They felt this car was so new it was given the chassis number CC31.The Eggenberger built car was only ever a spare for the team.
These CC numbers are quite probably a key to a previous thread concernning Capris!!

CC's Dave Cook reckoned they built about 25 Capris for Grp 1, the majority being sold to Belgium and France etc... But the last one was apparently 21? Anyway if CC29 and CC30 were Bimmers then surely CC27 and or CC28 must've been the Mustang/s that they built up for 1983 (sold onto a German privateer in 1984).

So it'll be fascinating to know what kind of cars CC26 and 27 were!!

CC must've changed their touring car racing plans 3 years in a row due either to regulation changes, UK Concessionaire changes of priority, or indeed their own decisions!

Back to point and ian, there's an orange Jagermester liveried Schnitzer 635 in the Museum of technological history in Mannheim. It said on the plaque that it was driven in 1984 DTM by Stuck. Do you know what chassis this is?
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Old 24 Jun 2006, 11:08 (Ref:1640234)   #74
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Hans Stuck did race a car for Walter Brun in Jagermeister colours in the '84 German Production series(their version of the BTCC).The team ran two other cars for Brun himselfIWarsteiner)and for Mario Ketterer(Maxit).Two of the cars were brand new for the start of the season and were built by Eggenberger.I do not know the chassis numbers. Two cars were retained for 1985and one was sold to Rolf Goring(chassis number AF16849).This was then sold to Axel Felder who raced it in Germany in '86/7.Another car was sold to Kurt Konig at the end of '85 and Brun left touring car racing to concentrate on his splendid 956/962's.Remember that in Germany,Jagermeister is a legendary sponsor(you could write a book about the cars/drivers they have backed) and Stuck is held in very high regard so it would be the obvious colour/sponsor/driver combination for the museum to have.I amnot saying it is not a pukka car but it will have had a different racing life since Stuck ran it in '84! Incidentally,BMW sell an absolute gem of a version of this car in 1/18th scale,you can order it from any BMW dealers parts store.They also do the X-ray version.
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Old 24 Jun 2006, 11:14 (Ref:1640236)   #75
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Regarding post#48.my notes say this about the South African car at the '85 Silverstone TT...race number unknown,driven by Tony Viana/Nicolo Bianco,came 8th. Backed by Scope magazine/contributions from other South African Drivers!! White with silver/black panels and red logos,not the usual Sytner colours!! Ted Grace had built a Group N car raced in '85 by Barry Williams,this ran in very similar colours to Sytners Group A car.I wonder if this could have been uprated for the South African drivers?
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