Unfulfilled talents - those who never achieved potential?

[henk4]

Originally posted by chunterer
Gentlemen, sorry to risk ruining your debate about ovals and direction, but please could we keep this thread to drivers and what they could/could not have achieved?
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You are right, sorry, my fault, I justed wanted to know in what sort of races these unfulfilled talents could have bloomed.

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Also glad McNish on verge of Jordan drive. The Scot is the seminal example of unfuliflled talent of all time (if you're British, that is

>> Good that Jos is going to take this seat (if you're Dutch, that is )

>>
Keep em coming people!!

;

[chunterer]

Hey, thanks Henk, no worries mate

Hmm, yes a Jos v McNish match up could be very interesting!!

Feel free to advocate oval drivers, i hadn't considered that they may not have achieved what they should in their sphere, i'm not restricting this thread to purely road racers. As some of you may have noticed i've been banging the drum for a certain IRL driver (or two) to come do F1 cos i think they're on par with JPM, Kimi, Alonso and Webber as the top drivers in the world. Don't want to see Hornish and Dixon etc not fulfilling their obvious abilities.

[BSchneiderFan]

How different things might have been if Kristensen, as was tipped pre-season, had won that pesky F3000 title in 1997. But look what a fabulous career Ricardo Zonta's having. Oh, wait, hang on...

[chunterer]

Originally posted by BSchneiderFan
How different things might have been if Kristensen, as was tipped pre-season, had won that pesky F3000 title in 1997. But look what a fabulous career Ricardo Zonta's having. Oh, wait, hang on...

Yeah right there sir!

Tommy is class act and has proven so, guess that Autosport or whoever it was he drove for that year on a budget were too ineperienced against Sears and Marko?

Bit unfair on Zonta, reckon he's got something and may still get the opportunity to show it as age on his side. Unfortunately not now the case for TK.

Amusing to see MSN's top 50 drivers who didn't make it. Wonder if they got the idea off here?! Not entirely sure about some of the candiadates, or at least the order either? Good to see this kind of thing in print though!

Right who's gonna be the next name to be offered up on this thread.?......

[BSchneiderFan]

Stephane Sarrazin. Blindingly quick with a midfield F3000 team, lands a plum drive with the McLaren junior squad, and it all falls apart. Drove one F1 race with Minardi, subbing for Luca Badoer, I believe, almost resurrects his career with a Toyota test seat, but now it's all gone horribly wrong again. A few sportscar outings, sure, but when was the last time you heard Sarrazin discussed as an F1 prospect? Sad. Very sad.

[chunterer]

BSf!

Sarrazin a good one!

He was up there with the other accepted front runners in what were two or three highly competitive 3000 seasons 97-99.

In fact we could set a new thread up for Frenchmen who didn't quite make it at or to the top flight in spite of ability!

How bout this lot?!

1/ Erik Comas - surely had it but temperamental.
2/ Eric Bernard - got fed up with getting mucked about i think.
3/ Franck Lagorce - bloody fast, strong Ligier debut.
4/ Jules Bouillion - one of THE mysteries (early case of Pizzonia syndrome perhaps, ie meteoric career and F1 testing pace not translated into F1 race pace?)
5/ Eric Cheli - was rated as high as other 'Eric/ks'.
6/ Laurent Aiello - French version of Burt or McNish i think?
7/ Cyrille Sauvage - very brave and quick, but perhaps didn't know what to do with his talent.
8/ Laurent Redon - doing ok in IRL but was supposed to be superstar in making.
9/ Yannick Dalmas - illness perhaps knocked stuffing out of him?
10/ Olivier Grouillard - bit of a rock ape at times behind the wheel but very very fast in anything.

separate - Sebastien Enjolras - Montagny's nemesis in mid late 90's and arguably better, sad that he was killed at Le Mans.

The list is probably endless!!! :confused:

[BSchneiderFan]

That Yannick Dalmas is unemployed does astonish me. OK, he's not getting any younger, and I think his illness did affect him, but the guy's won Le Mans four times and I think would still be competitive in a prototype.

I have a theory that there is a group of very talented sportscar drivers whose careers never really recovered from Porsche's withdrawal at the end of 1998, as they were Weissach men and would have played a great role in the company's future top-line racing projects. Primarily, of course, Dalmas, Uwe Alzen and Jorg Muller, but I'd also throw in Stephane Ortelli and maybe Sascha Maassen too.

[deeks6]

Originally posted by BSchneiderFan
.

I have a theory that there is a group of very talented sportscar drivers whose careers never really recovered from Porsche's withdrawal at the end of 1998, as they were Weissach men and would have played a great role in the company's future top-line racing projects. Primarily, of course, Dalmas, Uwe Alzen and Jorg Muller, but I'd also throw in Stephane Ortelli and maybe Sascha Maassen too.

Anyone who saw Uwe Alzen driving in the wet at the recent Bathurst 24 hour would agree he can still steer a bit.

Agree with your prognosis.

Actually, I was always wanted to see Schneider in a better F1 car than the godawful Zakspeed...

[chunterer]

Originally posted by Mike.ca
&nbsp The Villeneuve signing came a year later, so it had no effect on Tracy's deal with Benetton. If anything, JV made it easier for CART drivers to be taken seriously in F1.
&nbsp Tracy did well in his Benetton tests. If Briatore had simply offered him a ride for the 1995 season he probably would have taken it. Instead, Briatore wanted him to sign a contract that would have tied him to Benetton for several years (i.e. forbidden him from talking to any other teams) but without any guarantee of a Benetton drive - ever. Tracy's father, who was handling the negotiations, told him to get stuffed. I think Paul Tracy would have been a winner in F1. If he'd gone over in '95, he might well have beaten Jacques to the title.

I'm going back a few weeks here Mike but i think that the JV discussions were already in progress by the time of Tracy's test , (he was naturally linked to Ferrari to begin with) even if Jacques wasn't to sign until September '95 or whenever it was. i think that Ford and perhaps Bernie organised the Tracy test with Briatore to put pressure on the JV party, Pollock and Williams to hurry up and negotiate as Bernie wanted a North American in F1 quick and the Villeneuve name to help rebuild F1 image after death of Senna - big names and new faces and all that?

Can anyone remember Vignault, the Spenard FF2000 protege i mentioned, i'd like to know bit more about who he actually is/was?

Another name to add to the thread could be Rick Mears. I know he was arguably the man in CART but he was on pace in Brabham test, i recall but for some reason he never made the switch to F1... why not, surely he's have been a contender?

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally posted by BSchneiderFan
I have a theory that there is a group of very talented sportscar drivers whose careers never really recovered from Porsche's withdrawal at the end of 1998, as they were Weissach men and would have played a great role in the company's future top-line racing projects. Primarily, of course, Dalmas, Uwe Alzen and Jorg Muller, but I'd also throw in Stephane Ortelli and maybe Sascha Maassen too.

Another name I forgot - Patrick Huisman. Tested a 911 GT1-98 at the end of 1998 and went well, but then it was goodbye Porsche...

[chunterer]

Yes Bsf, Muller, J really ought to have got an F1 drive. He was on pace of and sometimes quicker than JJ during BMW LMP season in '99 i think it was? and always strong in testing the BMW Williams test hack F1.

Alzen, bit wild but damn quick most definitely. Ortelli smooth and fast.

Patrick Huisman, i keep getting that family muddled up! Bit like the Simon's!

[BSchneiderFan]

Jorg Muller (damn, wish I could find out how to make an umlaut!) was quick, though always a little more accident-prone than Lehto - was it two years in a row he dropped the BMW V12 LMR off the road at Petit Le Mans? Doing it in '99 probably cost JJ the inaugural ALMS title (that and the screw-up with paperwork at Sebring). When Zanardi was unceremoniously dropped by Williams at the end of 1999, Muller and Kristensen were both touted for the vacancy, but it went to some British youngster... Still, Muller deserved more than tootling around in a 2-litre saloon car.

Huisman proved his ability with four Porsche Supercup titles on the bounce, but should be snapped up by someone to lead a prototype campaign. Ortelli likewise. Come on, Porsche! Stop messing about and build a GTP!

[Pete Fenelon]

What about Rad Dougall? Blazingly fast at the start of the '79 F2 season and then went backwards.... (admittedly in part 'cos the 792 was a hound and his old Toleman 782 was a honey....)

[chunterer]

Yeah, i saw Dougall's name crop up as i was flicking through an old Autosport the other week.

He was a pretty handy pilot of Rovers too!

Almost came back in late 80's with the MIL/Hodgetts Toyota Supra Turbo BTCC team i think?

Speaking of quick South African's, Hilton Cowie was pretty good. Probably the saddest case of wasted talent from that part of the world recently is Etienne Van Der Linde, brother of Shaun.

Etienne appeared seriously quick to my mind when in Formula Opel a few years back and apart from a couple of Euro 3000 races a couple of years ago hasn't been seen since. I hope he can find a bit of money cos he's probably the quickest South African driver at the mo?

[Pete Fenelon]

Earl Goddard's another South African who could and might still go further.

There's some damn good drivers around who could move into the mainstream - Edwin Jowsey and Kevin Mansell are probably ready for F3000 as it stands, but they seem to be enjoying their racing instead

I always felt Andy Priaulx was headed right for the top, right back to his hillclimbing days - didn't quite happen for him in F3 but I think he's just a little wasted in fwd tourers - maybe if BMW decide to do GTs with the new 6-series Coupe they'll put him in that? - and go on, give him a Williams test!


Of "les Francais" mentioned above...

1/ Erik Comas - surely had it but temperamental.

Agreed. Had it in him to be a regular points-scorer in F1, I think, but didn't have the patience.

2/ Eric Bernard

Never saw the seeds of genius in him, always felt he was steady rather than a star.


3/ Franck Lagorce -bloody fast, strong Ligier debut.

Yes, I was disappointed when his career fizzled out.

4 Jules Bouillion - one of THE mysteries (early case of Pizzonia syndrome perhaps, ie meteoric career and F1 testing pace not translated into F1 race pace?)

And Jules' touring car career was a bit hesitant afterwards, too.

5/ Eric Cheli - was rated as high as other 'Eric/ks'.

Yes, very hyped at the time - and disappeared right off the radar...

6/ Laurent Aiello - French version of Burt or McNish i think?

Great sports car touring car driver though.

7/ Cyrille Sauvage - very brave and quick, but perhaps didn't know what to do with his talent.

8/ Laurent Redon - doing ok in IRL but was supposed to be superstar in making.

9/ Yannicj Dalmas - illness perhaps knocked stuffing out of him?

But you don't achieve the Le Mans wins unless you're fit and tough and a damn good driver!


10/ Olivier Grouillard - bit of a rock ape at times behind the wheel but very very fast in anything.

You can't call Grouillard inconsistent, because the one thing he did with consistency was fast lap, graunch.
Had a gorgeous partner, almost as attractive as Mrs Stefano Modena.

[chunterer]

Hey Pete,

Thanks for the appraisal of the 'nearly French'

Earl Goddard appears v quick but who is he really up against. I'd like to see him in a more competetive series soon as well, even if to gauge his talent?

Priaulx's a good one. I remember one F3 race at Silverstone supporting FIA GT's in '97 i think. He was in a year old car and was superb in the wet. Think he finished 6th or something, ahead of many Class A cars. (This was when B's weren't on A pace of course!)

[henk4]

Does Martin Stretton qualify for this thread? His efforts in historic racing appear to support the idea that he could have been a real racer, but I have no idea whether he ever tried.

[chunterer]

Yes, i guess he does qualify. But he's never really sought a professional 'serious' career i don't think? Quick driver though!!

[Stephen Green]

I think it's been down to a lack of finances as always. He hasn't been able to afford to drive the six wheel Tyrrel for the past year, a real shame as he has so much talent.

[angst]

Marc Surer is a guy who stands out for me. The fact he got where he did with very little money behind him. He was fast, very good in the wet(fastest lap '81 Brazilian GP - in the Ensign!!) brave, determined and seemed to be technically good too. Had to come back from two very bad accidents, both at Kyalami, neither of which seemed to have any effect on his speed.

Michel Trolle is another who was getting better and better with each race in F3000 and could have gone on to greater things had it not been for his accident.

Thierry Tassin, another struggling with low budgets and still getting the job done.

Richard Dallest - whatever happened to him?

Jim Crawford, Jo Gartner, Manfred Winkelhock, Piercarlo Ghinzani, Nicola Larini, Gunnar Nilsson, Stefan Bellof, Alain Ferte, Philippe Streiff, Derek Daly(what went wrong???), Stephen South, Alex Caffi, Bruno Giacomelli, Russell Spence.....the list could go on and on and on an............

[angst]

Oh, and if we're talking of unfulfilled potential then Gilles Villeneuve has to be there. Had he lived through '82 I think he would have destroyed the rest of the field that year and then.... who knows?

[Dan Rear]

Angst, agreed re Daly, what did go wrong. He was good in FF in a strong year here, better and better in F3 winning the series, and good in Euro F3. Then brilliant against the Marches in F2 '78, quick a year later in an 'interrupted' season, and looked good in his first F1 races in the Ensign. He was OK too I thought with the Tyrrell in 80 against Jarier, it all fell, apart with the RAM March in 81. I guess by the time he got a good car with Williams, his confidence had gone a bit. Anyone else any views on him ?

[chunterer]

Thanks for further posts guys!

Yes, Dan, the word Rosberg springs to mind!

If Derek hadn't have had someone who was really up for making the most of a golden opportunity as a team-mate, then he would have done alright. Just that Keke was one of the quickest drivers around at the time and was always on it! I think that put paid to Daly's hopes.

Daly was one of those guys who ended up in right places at wrong times i think. Tyrrell, v Jarier. JPJ one of those enigmas, so quick on a day and could make any teammate look bad on his day. Daly's Williams situation perhaps a little bit Like Capelli's when he finally got top drive..... next to Alesi for example....right team but wrong time and wrong team mate to have if you're gonna do any good!!

[wblh]

I agree Chris Amon is a standout but I`d like to throw Jim Richards into the mix . I reckon he could have done anything. Perhaps he still could. Theres also a little bald guy whose name escapes me but he`s been running around in champcars off and on for the last couple of years and he sure was something in F5000 back in the early 80`s

[JGM]

When Tony Brise and Tom Pryce were competing in Formula Ford in the UK in the early 70s there was a third driver who was right on the pace with them - Richard Croucher. I don't think he went much beyond Formula Ford for whatever reason but I always wondered what he might have achieved had he done so. I suppose all three of these drivers should be nominated.