What's happening with the newer drivers?

[BootsOntheSide]

If I may start this with a quote from the 'Drivers Fighting for Their Futures' thread:

Originally posted by Skam85
Look at the rookies over the last two years. Wow look at da Matta what a champ. Wilson was OK, a bit unlucky not to have a seat. Firman-not good enough, Kiesa-slow, Pizzonia-i think he did OK. This year has been worse. Klien-OK, about Wilson level, Pantano and Burni-rubbish, Baumgartner-slow but consistent at least. Glock is still unproven.

It has seemed to me for a while that the recent arrivals in F1 have been a long way below those who entered in 2001-2002. Is this the genuine picture? Are teams not giving drivers enough time to shine, or are the best youngsters simply not progressing through the ladder?

Interestingly, only one of the last 6 F3000 champions have gone straight into F1, and only Montoya and Heidfeld are in this year. Meanwhile, drivers who haven't won championships of note are coming in, often significantly before they are ready. Does it all come down to sponsorship, or are teams hiring the wrong youngsters?

[ralf fan]

Simple teams like Jordon and Minardi want not the most talented driver but one that can bring the most cash...

Jag are too impatient... Pizzonia has shown that he can be a good driver but with them as well it comes down to money... would Klein really be in f1 had it not been for his financial backing? i doubt it...

it could be a long time to the next time we see Minardi bringing someone of Alonso or Webber's talent

[ralf fan]

Forgot to add Toyota's expectancy of new drivers being on podiums or they are gone...

CDM didnt deserve the boot he had been as good as Panis this year who himself has not shined...

Toyota simply expect too much form their drivers

[raul_iulian]

It's like this: no money no F1. Ferrari are spending millions of dollars to be as good as they are,...so the are teams are looking desperly for money.... to be half so good.
It's sad to see good drivers out, just because they don't have what it takes. Thak God they give Zonta a shot, but CDM was as good as any F1 driver (almost), maybe it was the car Did they everthik about that. let's hope will see better drivers next seson, not just "big Sponsors" It's not SPONSORS CUP. IT'S F1 BEST IN EVERYTHING.

[Tweed]

I think a lot of teams are trying too hard to find the next big thing and signing up drivers too early in their careers, but even so the level has slipped in the last 18 months or so. Wait for Mr. Liuzzi!

[raul_iulian]

AND LIUZZI WILL DO WHAT? WITHOUT A GOOD CAR NOTHING IS POSIBILE! NOT EVEN Mr SENNA COULD DO ANYTHING "SORRY BIG GUY"!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Adam43]

Welcome to 10-10ths raul_iulian. These are the age old issues of motor-racing.

In terms of whether we are seeing decent new talent or not. Well I think that to find even one new long term prospect a year is quite good. There are only 20 seats and limited space to try them out.

[raul_iulian]

When CDM join F1Toyota, i thought he will do a big thing, well this is what will happend to all new drivers without a good car. Do u think Mika and JV could've win the championship without a good car..........

[BootsOntheSide]

Mika and Ayrton didn't have good cars when they started out though. They managed to earn top drives through their displays in less competitive equipment - as have Kimi, Alonso and Webber more recently.

[Kirk]

My cynical side, which is often right, says that F1 is at the the point where technology and car development has far surpassed the importance of who drives the car, at least in the minds of team principlals. And until the sport retracts and FIXES the obvious problems of today's F1 (of electronic driving aids, auto trannies and aerodynamics gone mad) this problem will magnify!

[sonic]

poorly talented pay drivers aside there are 2 issues here for me

1) Compared to other sports F1 doesn't do a very good job of talent scouting drivers in lower formulae.

The only exception I can think of is McLaren with Lewis Hamilton - they've supported and guided him since he was about 10. Which is more like the sort of structure you see in football.

Apart from that F1 is more like the fashion industry where teams seem to rely on hype and 2nd hand reports, rather than seeing it with their own eyes.

2) secondly - and more importantly - talent is not the sole criteria upon which F1 drivers are judged. Its a political game and your attractiveness to sponsors, managers' connections, nationality, the fact you share a surname with your famous dad (honestly would piquest and rosberg have had that F1 tryout last year based on regular criteria?), and a bunch of other factors that used to matter a bit less are now to the fore.

So a combination of genuine lack of awareness and prioritising other issues means F1 is increasingly less the pinnacle of pure driving talent it once was.

You could take another 10 drivers from Kimi, Button and Alonso's era in international karting and they would do just as good a job as these 3 (note: Luzzi and Davidson are 2 more from exactly the same era). for me its just heartening these 3 managed to get in.

[MichaelH]

The rookie I've been most impressed (or least disappointed) with this season is Zsolt Baumgartner. That says it all I think.

[spider]

I remember a recent quote from Alonso where he stated that the quality of the drivers he faced in his karting days was far superior to the overall quality he now faces in F1! It's a sad fact that motorsport is a rich mans sport, and with the global marketing that F1 now provides it is a solid place to promote your business. The manufacturers have come in, raised the financial bar, and now we’re in a position that the ideology of F1 – the worlds greatest drivers going wheel to wheel, has been lost.

I don’t blame the smaller teams for going for the pay drivers, as it does appear that there is little choice. It’s ridiculous that Jordan’s budget of about, and I don’t know the exact figure, of £40-£50 million is seen as ‘tiny’. I mean, that is HUGE money, so it just goes to show how stupid the team budgets have become.

Liuzzi will hopefully get the Sauber berth next season, and will hopefully shine through. Just hope that Davidson lands the BAR drive too…

[raul_iulian]

i said that nobody in a Sauber, Jordan, Minardi, Jag, williams.... could do anything; not even Senna or Mika. That's the blind true. Nobody can stop Michael, without a good car.... Do u think Monty in a Ferrari could be stoped by a Michael in a Williams....????? it's all about the car.

[Kicking-back]

You can prove yourself whatever car your in.

It just won't necessarily be measured in results.

[touringcarnut]

The cream will rise to the top, a good driver will eventually get his chance. I know its often about who can bring money, but there have been some talented drivers without much cash.

[N I Tram]

A lot of drivers have proved themselves in poor cars, even if you can't win races in them. Based on the performances of his team-mates, the first 3 Benettons Michael drove weren't race-winning cars.

Teams certainly aren't patient enough at the moment. Pizzonia is proving himself now, after Jaguar treated him badly. However, I suspect that guys like Wirdheim and Bourdais would be better prospects than even Bruni and Pantano, who didn't bring much cash for their drives. Pantano is probably better than his results suggest, and deserves a second chance - if he'd've driven in Canada he'd probably have taken at least 1 point, and perhaps had the appropriate confidence lift.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by touringcarnut
The cream will rise to the top, a good driver will eventually get his chance. I know its often about who can bring money, but there have been some talented drivers without much cash.

Hmmm ... in most auto racing series I agree that yes the cream will rise to the top. In F1 however it is getting exceedingly difficult to stand out as a driver. So much depends on technology, engineering, budget etc. After Schumi, it is mere speculation the actual order of the rest of the field. Most would choose JPM, Kimi and perhaps Webber but who's to say that guys like Fisi, Alonso and young guns like Klein couldn't do just as well under the right circumstances? It's a fine line indeed.

[Adam43]

For those missing the last few posts: It wouldn't have had quite the impact if everyone hadn't gone on about it. Trimmed for the sake of the thread.

Also can we keep txt speak to a minimum. See the forum rules.

[BootsOntheSide]

I've neve rbelieved that the cream neccesasrily rises to the top in motor racing. If a driver gets a chance to prove himself, with team support equal to his team-mate and enough seat time, he still isn't guaranteed a second season. Money and marketability have a bigger effect than talent unfortuantely.

[ianpearson]

I think you've got to look right at the start of the racing ladder to understand why new drivers in F1 struggle when they get there. All you see in F1 these days is the fastest of the rich kids, motorsport is so expensive that most dads have already spent so much money on karting they could of bought 2 three bed semis instead before the lad reaches 16. Then you need 100k+ for a shot at the first rung of the ladder, there is a limit to how many people can afford that. People are also very blinkered by hard results rather than having a look around at peoples resources when judging talent, sometimes the lad who scrapes into the top 6 of a junior formula race on 2nd hand tyres, an old engine, no mechanics, data logging & on parts he has to make himself is probably as good if not beeter than the person getting the limelight, but knowone will look at him cause he is not winning & has no manager talking him up.I don't know what the solution is but that could be the answer to your question. The likes of irvine, Tommy byrne (Spelling?) will never be seen again, it will be second generation F1 drivers fromm now on cause they are the only ones with enough money. As if F1 could'nt get any more inbread.
Right must do some work, i've got a race budget to pay

[sonic]

Originally posted by ianpearson
All you see in F1 these days is the fastest of the rich kids,

Whilst I agree motorsport will never be a sport for the poor because of the equipment required, what you say isn't actually true.

Kimi and Jenson don't come from wealthy families. neither, (if he ends up actually racing!) does Davidson. Thise are 3 I actually know about, im sure there are more.

In my experience the best drivers are usually the less well off kids who don't enjoy a performance advantage from an early age and have to learn how to actually drive faster and race harder than the rich kids.

Consequently chassis manufacturers / engine tuners in karting fund the good drivers because they need to win races as a marketing tool. These guys are normally pretty good at recognising talent - and its in their interest to get results.

Moving on with factory support you have the opportunity to win major world events and then wealthy professional managers can decide if they want to take a gamble and fund you through lower rungs of the single seater ladder with top teams.

That's the way it worked for these three anyway.

So the less well off drivers CAN and do get through the lower formulae - I just think F1 teams need to do better at talent spotting and prioritisng talent above other factors.

[Uncle]

sonic everything you have said is correct Kimi Jenson and Ant have not been spoon fed.The Guys in Fi need to look at a few tapes of these three karting to see what real racing is or should be about.The overtaking movements are so fast and presise

[ianpearson]

Kimi and Jenson don't come from wealthy families. neither, (if he ends up actually racing!) does Davidson. Thise are 3 I actually know about, im sure there are more.

Moving on with factory support you have the opportunity to win major world events and then wealthy professional managers can decide if they want to take a gamble and fund you through lower rungs of the single seater ladder with top teams.

I stand corrected then, are you saying all three of thems first drives in the uk with Haywood racing was funded by personal managers then? I know Buttons mygale had sponsorship from Sutton, can't remember what sponsorship Kimis mygale Renault had on it before he pulled out when he could'nt compete against Pizzonia in his Tatuus.

I was just speaking from experience, I can't remember too many young profesional drivers turning up in cheap road cars or the dads mercs looking to small either

[ianpearson]

i always mess up that quoting business, good job i don't work in IT