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Old 30 May 2011, 15:16 (Ref:2888235)   #2866
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Originally Posted by Le Vieux View Post
In which case, it seems that the trucks are fitted with the same engines as the cars and will struggle to complete the distance to Le Mans.

It's a journey they should complete easily within 24 hours which begs the question : What are they doing between now and next weekend? Stopping off for more testing somewhere? Completing the build of the cars?

At least it's an indication that they intend to turn up at Le Mans.
Meyrick just posted something on Twitter about final testing at Monza. So there's obviously some pre-LM preparation still happening.
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Old 30 May 2011, 15:24 (Ref:2888237)   #2867
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Aston chose the straight-six turbo because future road cars will use such a configeration, presumably, including future GT cars.

All engines have their pros and cons, the Aston V12 was heavy with a high CG, while much of the petrol P1 field use high reving atmo V8's, engines it was claimed couldn't complete 24hrs before the RS Spyder and HPD proved otherwise.

This is restrictor racing, all configerations are meant to have an equal chance, none have benefited more from this stance than diesel's.
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Old 30 May 2011, 15:53 (Ref:2888258)   #2868
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Originally Posted by Samoan Attorney View Post
That is a staggering assertion. Dr. Ulrich Baretzky is Audi Sports' Head of Engine Technology. This is not an accident, it is because he is one of the best in the business.

As a person I found that he will say what he thinks and is able to back that up with facts and genuine achievements. While technology has improved over the years, the laws of physics remain constant.

It is correct that Audi's marketing needs and laws regarding future fuel efficiency from our masters at the EU are also factors but there is little point in having a marketing driven solution to a problem if that solution does not work in the real world.

Quite why AMR chose the straight six engine configuration will become clear with the passage of time but any rational examination of the evidence available is that they are going to struggle to be competitive at Le Mans in a few weeks. That will be a pity as having them being able to race head to head with Audi and Peugeot would add to the spectacle.
Agree. Marketing aside, Baretzky certainly ran through every engine permutation prior to deciding upon the V6 for R18. And in fact I'd say he knows quite a lot about the benefits and disadvantages of a turbo I6. Contrary to some opinion. To dismiss him so blatantly is to put the wool over one's eyes.

I haven't been so bold to suggest as much, but since I now see it out in the open, Aston's project DOES indeed screams of a car designed to a minimal budget with the hope that it will be performance balanced competitive. I certainly HOPE that's not the case, but I wouldn't put it past GHC. They did pull the trigger based on the ACO's reassurances regarding Article 19 of the regulations. Why were they so concerned about that? Because the choice of the I6 was so totally awesome?
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Old 30 May 2011, 16:16 (Ref:2888270)   #2869
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His opinion isn't being dismissed, but writing off an engine based on it's configeration is clearly little more than mind games, especially so in restrictor racing, the very reason the diesel is competitive.

The P1 field now uses former P2 engines, the 3.4 V8's and 2.0T's were all considered too fragile before manufacturer's stepped in and made them work, likewise the challenges of a diesel motor were considered too great before they proved the doubters wrong.

No one goes racing without first playing politics, Audi worked the ACO to ensure diesel's were competitive, every GT car on the grid from BMW to Corvette have performance breaks, Aston are playing the same game everyone else is.
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Old 30 May 2011, 17:03 (Ref:2888286)   #2870
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Originally Posted by MulsanneMike View Post
I haven't been so bold to suggest as much, but since I now see it out in the open, Aston's project DOES indeed screams of a car designed to a minimal budget with the hope that it will be performance balanced competitive. I certainly HOPE that's not the case, but I wouldn't put it past GHC. They did pull the trigger based on the ACO's reassurances regarding Article 19 of the regulations. Why were they so concerned about that? Because the choice of the I6 was so totally awesome?
Mike, to put an alternative spin on that, is there any chance AMR could have realised from the start that there was no way a petrol engine was going to be competitive, and so opted to spend the minimum possible until a better performance balance is on offer- and meanwhile in the background someone at Prodrive is quietly beavering away designing a more advanced concept ready for that time?

What I really don't get is why, if they're working to a minimal budget, they've opted to go out on such a limb over the engine, by adopting a configuration no-one's used in a prototype for years?

Wouldn't something a bit more mainstream have been cheaper and still given them a bargaining chip over performance balancing?

OK, the straight-6 gives them the marketing link to their history and future road cars, but right now it looks like a high-risk option, done on the cheap which has really turned round and bitten them in the most embarrassing manner.
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Old 31 May 2011, 10:16 (Ref:2888622)   #2871
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Originally Posted by JAG View Post
Aston chose the straight-six turbo because future road cars will use such a configeration, presumably, including future GT cars.

All engines have their pros and cons, the Aston V12 was heavy with a high CG, while much of the petrol P1 field use high reving atmo V8's, engines it was claimed couldn't complete 24hrs before the RS Spyder and HPD proved otherwise.

This is restrictor racing, all configerations are meant to have an equal chance, none have benefited more from this stance than diesel's.
my opinion is: AMR/prodrive thougth that as to develope an open sport car was cheaper than a coupè one, to develope a L6 engine with a turbo was much more simple and cheaper than develope a 3.4 V8 too. I don't believe in the "future road cars configuration" because a lmp1 engine hadn't and hasn't NOTHING to share with a road car engine, and aston martin produces only hand-made limited series luxury supercars... i don't think they will use that kind of engine in their future road car

The same reason was the use of the V12 from dbr9 in the lola aston. Why develope a new engine (and spend money) when you got already a powerfull one? (powerfull doesn't mean automaticly competitive)

I said a lot of times that AMR has made some mistakes

1. had to develope better the new car before the release, so the stupid/sad scenes at paul ricard and le mans test could be avoided

2. if aston martin hasn't any knowledge in making some kind of engines, then buy some judd V8, change something and call it AMR-judd (oreca since last year used AIM engines, that simply were modified judd V10).
Maybe is not the most competitive engine in the roster, but at the least you can use more than 300hp to make it run...

3. consequences of point 1, this year the 2 lola coupè could be used in the meanwhile that the new car had a better development.
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Old 31 May 2011, 11:52 (Ref:2888679)   #2872
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Mr. Vieux? All I saw on my run down the M40, to Oxford, this morning were Merc GP transporters going home...
The last Prodrive vehicle I saw, was a van trundling up to their test track.
I'll keep an eye (and ear) open as I return home tonight...
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Old 31 May 2011, 14:09 (Ref:2888780)   #2873
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Originally Posted by Tim the Grey View Post
Mr. Vieux? All I saw on my run down the M40, to Oxford, this morning were Merc GP transporters going home...
The last Prodrive vehicle I saw, was a van trundling up to their test track.
I'll keep an eye (and ear) open as I return home tonight...
Unless you head home via Monza I doubt you will see any AMR trucks, I've just seen a tweet confirming that they are at Monza for some final testing.
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Old 31 May 2011, 16:48 (Ref:2888846)   #2874
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Originally Posted by alexkiller8 View Post
my opinion is: AMR/prodrive thougth that as to develope an open sport car was cheaper than a coupè one, to develope a L6 engine with a turbo was much more simple and cheaper than develope a 3.4 V8 too. I don't believe in the "future road cars configuration" because a lmp1 engine hadn't and hasn't NOTHING to share with a road car engine, and aston martin produces only hand-made limited series luxury supercars... i don't think they will use that kind of engine in their future road car

The same reason was the use of the V12 from dbr9 in the lola aston. Why develope a new engine (and spend money) when you got already a powerfull one? (powerfull doesn't mean automaticly competitive)

I said a lot of times that AMR has made some mistakes

1. had to develope better the new car before the release, so the stupid/sad scenes at paul ricard and le mans test could be avoided

2. if aston martin hasn't any knowledge in making some kind of engines, then buy some judd V8, change something and call it AMR-judd (oreca since last year used AIM engines, that simply were modified judd V10).
Maybe is not the most competitive engine in the roster, but at the least you can use more than 300hp to make it run...

3. consequences of point 1, this year the 2 lola coupè could be used in the meanwhile that the new car had a better development.
If you believe some rumours there are already straight-six turbo road cars testing, this configeration has also been rumoured a number of times.

http://www.pistonheads.com/astonmart...?storyId=23237

AMR want to develop their engineering to produce carbon chassis and engines in-house, a handful of embarrassing outings is nothing compared to the future potential of the dpt., both for racing and road cars. Audi are prime examples of this with racing success and FSI and TDI developments.

Going for an off-the-shelf solution will give you a baseline performance, but to push ahead of the pack and have greater control you need to take things in-house.
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Old 31 May 2011, 16:49 (Ref:2888847)   #2875
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Originally Posted by Le Vieux View Post

Both Porsche and Jaguar managed to run successfully with six-cylinder engines, Jag's of course being an in-line six. Doubtless others more knowledgeable than I can add to that small list.

"
The 936 engine was a 2.1 turbo 6, well over 500bhp as well. Renault also did pretty well with a 2.1 turbo six.

So if it could be done over 30 years ago, maybe it can again. Audi can say what they like, the guy is a genius but he does not speak for Aston and wont be privy to all the inmost dealing of the hand grenade on wheels.

Good luck to them, and maybe the engine is not the only problem they face.
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Old 31 May 2011, 16:52 (Ref:2888851)   #2876
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Have photos in hand from Monza test, I'll post them later tonight. Nothing new that I can see, but it IS a positive they are continuing to test so close to Le Mans.
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Old 31 May 2011, 16:56 (Ref:2888854)   #2877
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if aston martin will replace his v12/v8 with l6 engines will be really sad.... it reminds me the beginning of the decline of alfa romeo brand....
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Old 31 May 2011, 17:22 (Ref:2888873)   #2878
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My personal uniformed opinion is that the I6 is likely going to be for cars as Aston attempts to capture some of the down market from their current lineup. Think Aston Martin BMW 3 series fighter.

In addition, I wouldn't doubt that Audi have tested various engine configurations on their computer simulations, and know within very accurate margins of error, what they can produce in power, and what the challenges might be under the current rules.

Last edited by Fogelhund; 31 May 2011 at 17:29.
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Old 31 May 2011, 17:42 (Ref:2888890)   #2879
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good to hear that Aston are still working on the car, it may not have meet with everyones expectations so far but it may just spring a surprise
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Old 31 May 2011, 18:53 (Ref:2888933)   #2880
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First shot from Monza test, Aston Martin is present with two cars . No Aero news for them. Today they find a raining day and run constantly for all day-long.

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