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Old 16 Oct 2005, 13:04 (Ref:1435023)   #16
Knowlesy
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But that's not the point.

Did Williams' decision to pit Heidfeld first mean Webber drove worse? No, of course not. Positions can be somewhat meaningless.
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Old 16 Oct 2005, 13:12 (Ref:1435034)   #17
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Originally Posted by Kicking-back
It's based on expectation.

We were told before the season that Mark would be the new Fangio.

He wasn't
Wasn't going to be either this year. As one of the other comment stated as they were praising the efforts of Nic, the car was crap.

I doubt Alonso would have achieved better results this year either if he was in the Williams, but I recon Webber would have got better results than Fisi actually did, if he had of been in the Renault.

All if's and but's I know. The one thing for sure is that Webber is a better driver than his results this year show.
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Old 16 Oct 2005, 13:12 (Ref:1435035)   #18
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Then how exactly was Heidfeld bett....oh, never mind.

I don't think we're going to come to an agreement on this, so how about them Lakers?
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Old 16 Oct 2005, 13:15 (Ref:1435041)   #19
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Well, I'll explain. Heidfeld seized his opportunities well and was very clean and tidy.

Webber missed some opportuinities (like his accident with Fisi at Malaysia - podium gone) and got into a few too many tangles and made more errors.

At least we've got some discussion here anyways, even if it is about the same parties.
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Old 16 Oct 2005, 13:18 (Ref:1435046)   #20
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Originally Posted by Menelaos
How does this show ANYTHING? JPM missed two races and had 2 stupid crashes and Fisico was a disaster. Plus, he ran an extra race at Indy.
all buts and ifs apart, it shows he achieved more in lesser equipment.
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Old 16 Oct 2005, 13:19 (Ref:1435047)   #21
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Skam85 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSkam85 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSkam85 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
1. Fernando Alonso - a true, well-deserving champion. He drove sensibly in what was the best car of the year (read best, not fastest). One mistake all year, and my highlight was that move on Michael Schumacher thru 130R. Still can't believe he did it!

2. David Coulthard - many reading this will ask 'why?', but he drove the wheels off that Red Bull. May not be crash hot at qually, but come race day, he's the man.

3. Kimi Raikkonen - I'm not going to hide the fact I don't like the guy, but hey, he drove really, really well sometimes. Just not well enough to beat Alonso.

4. Christian Klien - Most improved driver of the year, and caps off a great year for the Red Bull pair. Some terrific races, and I would say his race today has probably gained him a position or two. Would be a terrible shame if he ended up driving for STR and the car is a dog because this guy can go places if managed right.

5. Michael Schumacher - A terrible year for him, really, but the fact he was P3 in the WDC (okay, he would have probably been 4th or 5th if everyone had raced in the USA) shows what a true star he is. Put the car where it didn't belong, especially in Hungary and Imola, but just the fact he was so far ahead of Rubens in the same car gives him points in my book, because, let's face it, Rubens is no tugger.

6. Juan Pablo Montoya - I'm not sure what to make of his season, because he outpaced Kimi more often than not from Silverstone on, but before that he was no-where. I did think it would take him a while to get used to the car, but as I said, brilliant finish to the year (bar the final two races, where the points difference to Kimi blew out a bit)

7. Ralf Schumacher - I reckon he actually had a better year than Trulli. Look at qualifying vs. finishing position and you will find Ralf 90% of the time went up, while Trulli dropped. He smashed Trulli in the 2nd half of the season, and it all bodes well for another good teammate battle in '06.

8. Mark Webber - In qualifying, he was the man. Again, put the Williams where it shouldn't be, and was only outqualified 5 times. Solid finish to the year and hopefully the Williams Cosworth will be a good car...

9. Jenson Button - Vey solid finish to the year, but there were time early in the season where he should have been higher, but he just wasn't. I am still left to wonder a lot of the times, where does his mid race speed go, he just doesn't seem to have any. But, he did get a lot more out of the car than his teammate did.

10. Tiago Monteiro - Rookie of the Year, by a comfortable margin. A solid driver, maybe not super dooper Kimi/Fernando quick, but more like a Panis-esque driver, where 9 times out of 10 (or 18 times out of 19 ) he will bring the car home in one peice, and sometimes in the points. Hopefully we see him back in a better car. A team like Sauber would have fitted his talent well, but looks like only Midland is his option.


Dissapointing seasons for Sato, Barrichello, Fisichella and Villeneuve.
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Old 16 Oct 2005, 13:23 (Ref:1435050)   #22
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OK, I'll bite...

And despite Heidfeld supposedly seizing his opportunities, and Webber supposedly getting into tangles and making errors....they were level on points (if we correct the Monaco screw up, which we certainly should).

As for the Fisi incident, all I'll say is that the stewards fined Fisi, not Webber.
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Old 16 Oct 2005, 13:31 (Ref:1435052)   #23
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Which says that Webber could have done better than he did!
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Old 16 Oct 2005, 13:31 (Ref:1435053)   #24
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Skam85 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSkam85 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSkam85 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I want to put my 2c in on this one as well.

Fisi was badly at fault in Malaysia. Webber had already passed him, and Fisi went and tried to take the place back which was stupid, because his tyres were shot. Heidfeld, like nearly every race, was just sitting back and waiting, and there you go, 3rd place, right in his lap. Same as in Monaco, got the lucky break, and there's 2nd place, right in his lap, when he was never seriously going to have a go at Webber for position the way Michael did on Rubens. Same at the Nurburgring, Kimi throws his car off the track, and there you go, 2nd place, right in his lap.

See where I am going? At least Webber is willing to have a go, whereas Heidfeld just seems to sit back and wait for people in front to drop out/make mistakes.
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Old 16 Oct 2005, 13:41 (Ref:1435060)   #25
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BootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
So you praise Webber for going for it, and criticise Fisichella for going for it? No driver has had more crashes this season than Webber, and while they haven't all been his fault, it does suggest that he needs to modify his approach if he is to acheive his potential. Also, Nick seems to have contributed a lot more behind the scenes in getting the car competitive.
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Old 16 Oct 2005, 13:44 (Ref:1435065)   #26
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Which says that Webber could have done better than he did!
Whether Webber could have done better than Webber? Of course he could - and so could all of the drivers. None of them were perfect.

OR

Whether Webber could have done better than Nick? Well, as I've been trying to point out, he did at least as well as him. Any "opportunities" Webber had were those he earned for himself - or did Webber routinely secrete bricks in Heidfeld's car during qualifying?
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Old 16 Oct 2005, 13:49 (Ref:1435070)   #27
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Skam85 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSkam85 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSkam85 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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No driver has had more crashes this season than Webber
I'd love to see the stats on this.
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Old 16 Oct 2005, 13:49 (Ref:1435071)   #28
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So you praise Webber for going for it, and criticise Fisichella for going for it? No driver has had more crashes this season than Webber, and while they haven't all been his fault, it does suggest that he needs to modify his approach if he is to acheive his potential. Also, Nick seems to have contributed a lot more behind the scenes in getting the car competitive.
Of this I really am getting tired - can you supply more than the one quote about how Nick is good at this stuff (which BTW doesn't suggest that Mark is no good at this as well)?

And who really cares how good they are at development - isn't that what testers are for? It's the job of a race driver to go fast - something Webber can undeniably do.
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Old 16 Oct 2005, 13:50 (Ref:1435072)   #29
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I'd love to see the stats on this.
Me too.
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Old 16 Oct 2005, 14:00 (Ref:1435083)   #30
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It's not at all about the media hype, NO1SPECIAL. It's pure expectation because he had shown he could be REALLY good last year. We were expecting he'd be really good and he wasn't. On the other hand, NH was very good. He was not MUCH better, but he didn't make as many mistakes and was much more consistent.
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