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Old 17 Jun 2017, 21:49 (Ref:3743492)   #106
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Originally Posted by RedZedMikey View Post
Sadly indeed.

When the rules for V8SC were written. 4 door bodies were mandated. along with other rules, to virtually ensure the only eligible models were Commodore and Falcon; the VU Monaro was 8 or so years away, and Ford Australia was done with making 2 door cars. That was well over 20 years ago now, and the whole 2 door vs 4 door thing should be forgotten. Prior to V8SC, Australian Touring Cars from Improved production through Group C and Group A was full of 2 door cars, and I don't EVER remember complaints about 2 door cars through those years. Minis, Mustangs, Monaros, Falcon Coupes, Alfetta GTVs, Capris, Escorts, Corollas, Chargers, 2 door Pacers, Jags, XU1 and A9X Toranas, Sierras, BMWs, Starions, and the Nissan DR30, HR31 and R32 Skylines. The one that probably sailed closest to the wind in terms of interior space was the Group C Mazda RX7.

The R32 GT-R didn't cause ructions because it was a 2 door car - it was because it was good, and won races and championships. Perhaps if Group A rules had been amended to 2WD only. the story might have been different.

If 2 door Touring Cars were perfectly OK for 30 years of Touring Cars prior to the blinkered V8SC era, now that the cars that caused those rules are all but gone, then 2 door cars should be welcomed back - so long as they are genuine 4/5 seaters when in factory trim.
agreed, I have heard no feedback from anyone to suggest the mustang would not be welcome back. Thus , from my observation, there would be no barrier to introduce two doors cars
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Old 17 Jun 2017, 22:06 (Ref:3743527)   #107
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mayhem should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridmayhem should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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I would expect around 10 seconds a lap slower at bathurst, i think we would kiss goodbye to almost all government funding
I'm surprised government has a funding scale based on lap times?
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Old 17 Jun 2017, 22:23 (Ref:3743574)   #108
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I'm surprised government has a funding scale based on lap times?
Well if you only read half a post, which you then take out of context to your post that was being replied to then you have probably drawn a reasonable conclusion.

but if you take it in the context of the discussion then you know that is not the conclusion and the correct response would be something about how we are going to attract millennials to watch Seat''s and opels and all these other brands that are not in the top ten best sellers in australia
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Old 18 Jun 2017, 03:45 (Ref:3744111)   #109
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Consider punctuation then. I wasn't trolling, I read it as I said above.
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Old 18 Jun 2017, 03:53 (Ref:3744120)   #110
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Consider punctuation then. I wasn't trolling, I read it as I said above.
consider context then.

im more interested in your millennial theory though and how they will become engaged with TCR. The truth is, millennials need to be engaged for motorport to be continued. Eitherwise motorsport will die, and possibly soon
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Old 18 Jun 2017, 05:07 (Ref:3744192)   #111
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Seat''s and opels and all these other brands that are not in the top ten best sellers in australia
You mean the Volkswagen Golf and Holden Astra, some of the most popular cars on the road?

* Obviously race customers in Australia would choose the Golf or Audi version rather than the Seat, the cars are the same apart from the body anyway.
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Old 18 Jun 2017, 05:11 (Ref:3744194)   #112
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You mean the Volkswagen Golf and Holden Astra, some of the most popular cars on the road?

* Obviously race customers in Australia would choose the Golf or Audi version rather than the Seat, the cars are the same apart from the body anyway.
you took part of a sentance and turned it into a whole different discusion

how do we get millenials to watch these cars for brands that are not in the top ten
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Old 18 Jun 2017, 05:14 (Ref:3744195)   #113
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Ok, not a discussion i really want to get into, as its another topic, but the consequence is a massive reduction in people attending. so for instance if Clipsal (adelaide 500) is dropped then you have just dropped the equivalent crowd of aprrox the next 4 events combined (TAS, PI, WA & Winton). Thats a massive reduction and thats before we even bring in the move to TCR which was the question.
They are not attending ANYWAY, crowds drastically dropping... because Supercars as a race promoter are losing the plot and cancelling the concerts at Sydney and Adelaide, which are what the general public attended the events for.

As for millennials, to many of them driving around in circles burning resources for mere entertainment is blatant waste. So in the context of motorsport becoming a historical oddity like horse racing they can only do the best they can to promote motorsport.

Motorsport is no longer seen as fearless daredevils in awesome machines as it was seen in the 50s and 60s. Often it is instead, rightly, seen as uber wealthy playboys entertaining themselves by blatantly wasting resources... Not if these wealthy amateurs are simply not thinking about the famine affected poverty-stricken losers of the global inequality balance and how they could better direct their funds than on petrol, tyres and AP Racing brake discs! ^

^ To be fair, it is easy to get engrossed in glossy motorsport trade shows, five star hotels and submit to the first world fantasy.

Anyway, thankfully Erebus (for example) have wised up and now run their operation on the basis of commercially viable sponsorship. But the idea of patrons and wealthy gentleman and lady drivers in motorsport (for example paying for a GT car to race, then choosing to do minimal laps and hand over maximum seat time to the quick hired guns) is certainly very weird.
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Old 18 Jun 2017, 05:20 (Ref:3744199)   #114
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how do we get millenials to watch these cars for brands that are not in the top ten
You get VW, Honda, Renault, hot hatch etc enthusiasts to watch the races. Pretty simple. You get some general motorsport fans. That's your crowd.

Will there be less mullets and tank-tops in the crowd than Saturday night at the drags or Summernats or the hill at the Supercars version of the Bathurst 1000? Yeah, probably... oh well. That's fine. It would be more of a Bathurst 12 hour type crowd.

You can't force millennials to like something they don't like! Just promote it, a small number will like it, most will have no interest.

It's like saying "how do we get millenials to like rock music?"
For starters rock music is not even on commercial radio anymore, so they are not exposed to it, for second why do they have to like what we like? People would have said the same: "how do we get hippies to like swing music?" Yet they liked Jimi Hendrix wielding an electric guitar, just as millenials like dance music, hip-hop and electronic R&B.

So forget millennials and target your core 25+ years old market who will driving to the meeting in their tuned Golf Rs.

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 18 Jun 2017 at 05:27.
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Old 18 Jun 2017, 05:23 (Ref:3744201)   #115
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You get VW, Honda, Renault, hot hatch etc enthusiasts to watch the races. Pretty simple. You get some general motorsport fans ("champagne set" like the Adelaide International Motorsport Festival, Goodwood - type tweed jacket crowd, nerds with cameras). That's your crowd.

Will there be less mullets and tank-tops in the crowd than Saturday night at the drags or Summernats or the hill at the Supercars version of the Bathurst 1000? Yeah, probably... oh well. That's fine. It would be more of a Bathurst 12 hour type crowd.
So basically no crowd, think that was roughly my original comment, imagine how small at the other rounds(remembering the other rounds are already bigger than the 12 hour)
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Old 18 Jun 2017, 05:29 (Ref:3744209)   #116
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So basically no crowd, think that was roughly my original comment, imagine how small at the other rounds(remembering the other rounds are already bigger than the 12 hour)
TCR car costs and running costs would be on par with the Porsche GT3 Challenge series (second level Carrera Cup series) which does just fine for competitor numbers despite small crowds at the Shannons nationals. Drawn in some competitors from Kumho series, V8 Utes, GT, 86 Racing Series, and you'd have a solid field.

Check out this huge field in the German TCR series, despite not having the pizzaz of the top line DTM series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auZTm0VEJVM

Obviously TCR would not replace Supercars!

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If Supercars could create a production-based GT4-style regulation for six-cylinder turbo performance 4-door sedans (BMW M3, C43 AMG, Infiniti Q50 Black S, Alfa Giulia QV) those would be bigger, stylish, "desirable", faster cars...

BUT that would mean Ford and Holden would be OUT because they simply do not sell such a car anymore, would that be ok in your opinion? [Sadly Mustang has the wrong number of doors for a saloon formula! While the superb performance Cadillacs are not sold in Australia] Take Holden and Ford out, to make room and justification (Mercedes don't want to race with risk of being beaten by lesser brands like Holden) to bring in t
he prestige marques with performance sedans that have $100k+ starting prices?
How about my suggestion for a 4-door class to replace Supercars? Obviously Holden and Ford no longer required.

* Alfa Romeo Giulia QV
* BMW M3
* Mercedes C43 AMG
* Infiniti Q50 S

Basically Volvo previewed the future with their smaller base car and the focus on prestige upmarket brands. So they'd be like that but with 6-cylinder turbo engines instead of wailing V8s. Of course the road car would have to be sold in 6-cylinder turbo RWD form to be eligible just like 1993's rules (no Insignia specials thank you very much!).

They would have both the speed AND road relevance. It would be all about prestige marques, and prestige marques would be more inclined to compete without the risk of being beaten by "lowly" Holdens. While there are still Falcons and V8 Commodores (be they V8s or Insignias) running around, the risk of being beaten, and the "bogan" image will be a huge turn off to potential manufacturers.

So clean break, 6 cylinder turbos based on a matching road car only, what do you say? IMO may as well keep the COTF chassis, though production chassis may be more attractive to manufacturers.

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 18 Jun 2017 at 05:40.
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Old 18 Jun 2017, 05:36 (Ref:3744214)   #117
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TCR car costs and running costs would be on par with the Porsche GT3 Challenge series (second level Carrera Cup series) which does just fine for competitor numbers despite small crowds at the Shannons nationals. Drawn in some competitors from Kumho series, V8 Utes, GT, 86 Racing Series, and you'd have a solid field.
Im sure you are probably correct, im not sure what point you are making. Crowds will be smaller, media coverage is almost nil, no tv package (maybe multiple weeks delayed) Almost no one would care.

the porsche would be about 5-8 seconds quicker that the TCR

(sorry you edited)

why would those cars you mention attract a crowd. Any series has to be a natural progression of what we have, or you alienate your audience and you kiss them goodbye
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Old 18 Jun 2017, 05:42 (Ref:3744219)   #118
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why would those cars you mention attract a crowd. Any series has to be a natural progression of what we have, or you alienate your audience and you kiss them goodbye
Huh?

I drive a Civic Type R, it's great. I would be very interested in a TCR series. Lots of people drive Golf GTIs they would be also be very interested.

Like I said it would not to replace Supercars.

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why would those cars you mention attract a crowd. Any series has to be a natural progression of what we have, or you alienate your audience and you kiss them goodbye
If you mean the Alfa Romeo, BMW etc. they would attract a crowd because they are the fastest, most exciting sedans currently on sale (and that will continue to be on sale).

The Giulia, the M3, the AMGs these are the cars that draw the big interest on Youtube. These are the cars that populate the parking lot of mid-level management in some downtown firm.

The Commodore SS is not terrible by any means, but that is a thing of the past. It will be only BMW, Mercedes, Alfa Romeo, Jaguar etc offering super performance in sedan form (yes, for the rich) going into the future. I did forget the KIA Stinger too, my bad... that would also be eligible (and more reasonably priced as a road car).

I guess we could make an exception for the transversely-engined Ford Fusion (Mondeo) Sport AWD Twin-Turbo to compete with an unrepresentative longitudinal RWD layout if Ford Australia were to sell it down under.
*ahem Ford Australia pay attention!*

Sadly no performance next-gen Commodore on the horizon, so Commodore is out!

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 18 Jun 2017 at 05:49.
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Old 18 Jun 2017, 05:51 (Ref:3744224)   #119
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Huh?

I drive a Civic Type R, it's great. I would be very interested in a TCR series. Lots of people drive Golf GTIs they would be also be very interested.

Like I said it would not to replace Supercars.



If you mean the Alfa Romeo, BMW etc. they would attract a crowd because they are the fastest, most exciting sedans currently on sale (and that will continue to be on sale).

The Giulia, the M3, the AMGs these are the cars that draw the big interest on Youtube. These are the cars that populate the parking lot of mid-level management in some downtown firm.
But no one really buys those cars you mentioned. Are mid level management in some downtown firm even interested in motorsport, enough to travel two hours each way to a race track

Ok i should set the standard than we say attract a crowd i'm talking about an audience, both at track and on tv, similar to now. Not a few 1000 enthusiasts turning up
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Old 18 Jun 2017, 06:01 (Ref:3744232)   #120
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rich07 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridrich07 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridrich07 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridrich07 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Considering the lack of mainstream coverage the series gets these days you're not doing any worse
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