[Race] Australian Grand Prix 2023: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 3 of 23

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

So...you would allow F1 cars with "balloon tyres" to keep circulating through the maze of razor sharp carbon fibre debris?

That is not what he is saying. There were only two scheduled laps to go.
If we assume that the carbon shards covered the entire width of the track at that point, (they didn't) then that would be irresponsible at racing speed.
But they had already passed over the debris once by the time they came back around again and a FCY or virtual safety car wouldn't have had them at racing speed anyway.
You could argue that you wanted them to have a green flag finish but that policy is what created the demise of Alpine and the Sainz demotion, by putting everyone at risk (cold tires, not new ones) and ending with a safety car led lap anyway. Then we had the reset of the final result which was a nonsense.

You couldn't reinstate the Alpines so they lost out and Sainz got penalized with a 5 second penalty for an incident that Alonso never actually paid any penalty for because you went back to the lap before the incident to get the finishing order, but still saw fit to penalize Sainz.

As someone who has been involved in race control and stewarding that is completely unjust.
If you are going back to the previous order for your result and reinstate Alonso in his position then you put Sainz in his position too, as though the incident never happened.
You can't penalize Sainz, dock him 5 seconds on track for a safety car managed, non-racing lap behind a safety car that takes ignores any of the time that existed on track at the time of the lap you went back to, then reinstate Alonso as though the incident never happened.
If you are going back to the last lap of established racing before the second red flag then it is the grid order.

If it is the order at the time of the second red flag then that order is established and Sainz penalized at that point or the point they passed the end of the sector which should be on timing.

Then penalize Sainz 5 seconds from that position. But to go back prior to that start, thereby reinstating Alonso as though the incident never happened but still penalizing Sainz is a nonsense.

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by chavez

Should have ended the race....... which is contrary to the rules.

Do we prefer the Masi "make it up as you go" or the current "follow the rules as they are written"?

I am not sure there is a clear cut answer to that.

The 1 lap Grand Prix shows the rule is stupid.I don’t advocate making it up on the run but a scenario like Sunday should not be possible.

[steve_r]

I simply don't get this relatively new obsession with a grand prix having to run to exactly 100% of the planned laps. Throw a red and declare the result if you have gone beyond a certain proportion of laps or if a certain time has elapsed - it happens in lots of other forms of motorsport. A 1 lap Grand Prix is utterly ridiculous.

And running a single lap behind the safety car for the sake of crossing the line and taking the chequered flag is absolutely pointless, so why bother?

[chavez]

Originally Posted by Alan52

The 1 lap Grand Prix shows the rule is stupid.I don’t advocate making it up on the run but a scenario like Sunday should not be possible.

The one lap IMHO is not the issue.

It is the rules that allow a race to come to a finish, yet not allowing the competitors to improve their position.

Are they any other sports that actively prevent the competitors from improving their position while the clock (or in this case) the lap counter continues to click over?

Many sports either stop play for safety or injury reasons (and freeze the timer) or if the clock does continue to click, add the time on at the end.

A fair competition would allow for safety car laps not to be counted or at the very least ensure the competitors can actually compete at the conclusion of the race.

And if one lap sprints aren't acceptable, as appears to be the popular opinion here, what about two, three or what about five or is it seven?

Where is that sweet spot?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by chavez

Are they any other sports that actively prevent the competitors from improving their position while the clock (or in this case) the lap counter continues to click over?

The only similar(ish) example I can think of is American Football. In certain circumstances, a team in possession of the ball can run down the clock without their opponent being able to improve their position.

Possibly you could also consider Cricket. For example - a team batting last needing more than 6 runs a ball can only hold on for a draw.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

The only similar(ish) example I can think of is American Football. In certain circumstances, a team in possession of the ball can run down the clock without their opponent being able to improve their position.

Possibly you could also consider Cricket. For example - a team batting last needing more than 6 runs a ball can only hold on for a draw.

I would suggest that neither of those are sports that motor racing should wish to draw inspiration from in any degree whatsoever.

[Richard Casto]

Originally Posted by chavez

A fair competition would allow for safety car laps not to be counted or at the very least ensure the competitors can actually compete at the conclusion of the race.

As someone else pointed out. That option opens other other cans of worms such as the need to refuel cars.

Originally Posted by chavez

And if one lap sprints aren't acceptable, as appears to be the popular opinion here, what about two, three or what about five or is it seven?

Where is that sweet spot?

I think at the end of the day, there is likely to always be some scenarios in which the race will end with a wimper vs. a bang. While not ideal, finishing under yellow, etc. is an option. Not a desired one, but a valid option.

I have another view on this as well. I think most complain about the potential for chaos when you effectively create these super short sprint races. If F1 is the pinnacle of motorsports and this is supposed to be the best of the best. Why not just let them go racing. Be it 3, 2 or 1 lap left? If people crash out, so be it. Clearly the entire field didn't crash out. To finish first, first you must finish.



The problem is, while I think there is a logic to that idea, there are real practical problems. The reality is... drivers WILL act like idiots (even if they are the "best") and drive in very risky ways. We all expect the chaos of these late race restarts to be way beyond that of normal race start standing starts. Accidents will happen. Risk of injury will be higher. These restarts will have championship impacts. There will be financial impacts (repair costs in a cost capped era). Imagine late race restarts after a red flag WITHOUT tire warmers!!

I do think F1 is probably a bit red flag happy at the moment. Someone mentioned insurance earlier. I tend to wonder if this is residual impacts of Jules Bianchi's death. That trying to put things back together under yellow may result in some type of repeat of that situation, then the sport would be skewered if that happened. Red flags... damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I like the earlier comments by those who marshal with respect to the "marshalling to lowest common denominator" given the variability of marshal expertise when looked at globally. That is an interesting insight.

Richard

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by chavez

The one lap IMHO is not the issue.

It is the rules that allow a race to come to a finish, yet not allowing the competitors to improve their position.

Are they any other sports that actively prevent the competitors from improving their position while the clock (or in this case) the lap counter continues to click over?

Many sports either stop play for safety or injury reasons (and freeze the timer) or if the clock does continue to click, add the time on at the end.

A fair competition would allow for safety car laps not to be counted or at the very least ensure the competitors can actually compete at the conclusion of the race.

And if one lap sprints aren't acceptable, as appears to be the popular opinion here, what about two, three or what about five or is it seven?

Where is that sweet spot?

Motor racing is not a ball game like most sports.The combination of speed creating intrinsic danger means different protocols should apply.
As for what distance is too short didn’t they once declare races if 75% of distance had been completed?Thats a better solution to me to make them think if a red flag is really needed.
I was just as cranky about the 1 lap 2019 Bathurst 1000.
Stunts like these causes a big loss of credibility.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by chavez

Are they any other sports that actively prevent the competitors from improving their position while the clock (or in this case) the lap counter continues to click over?

Many sports either stop play for safety or injury reasons (and freeze the timer) or if the clock does continue to click, add the time on at the end.

Why does F1 have to be like other sports?

[S griffin]

It doesn't. F1 is a unique sport. But it needs to remain that, a sport

[dsg]

Originally Posted by S griffin

It doesn't. F1 is a unique sport. But it needs to remain that, a sport

So as a sporting competition the organisers should aim to have the most number of racing laps possible available for the cars to compete?

I don't have a problem with red flags to clean up a large or time consuming incident as it does allow more laps of competition. I believe the obvious issue with the Australian Grand Prix was recommencing the race after the red flag with standing starts.

[S griffin]

Obviously they need to complete the race, but not by playing god and bringing the red flags out with a few laps to go. It's too manipulated. But if they had to use a red flag, a standing start should not be used with 5 or less laps to go

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by dsg

So as a sporting competition the organisers should aim to have the most number of racing laps possible available for the cars to compete?

I don't have a problem with red flags to clean up a large or time consuming incident as it does allow more laps of competition. I believe the obvious issue with the Australian Grand Prix was recommencing the race after the red flag with standing starts.

I can't summon the mental resources to convince myself that a parade lap(or two) behind a safety car .prior to a chequered flag,forms any part of a competition.They might have completed the stated distance but that is about the sum of it.

[dsg]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

I can't summon the mental resources to convince myself that a parade lap(or two) behind a safety car .prior to a chequered flag,forms any part of a competition.They might have completed the stated distance but that is about the sum of it.

For no apparent reason the race thread was locked so I will respond here.

I agree the parade lap behind the safety car was pointless. However, two racing laps was not. If there is the opportunity to have two laps of competition they should have them. Why call the race off when more of the scheduled racing can occur.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by dsg

For no apparent reason the race thread was locked so I will respond here.

Don’t know why. Mod fat fingers it seems. Reopened and post moved into there/here.