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Old 24 Apr 2019, 13:36 (Ref:3899387)   #331
Mike Bell
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Originally Posted by zefarelly View Post
How can you have an FIA series running its own regulations?
If you’re talking about headlamps, it is a PA regulation in CER1 & CER2 that prototypes race with headlamps on, to make them more obvious to slower (not always ) GT cars. So the only option (according to MSUK) is to get HTP papers without, then fit......
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Old 24 Apr 2019, 15:22 (Ref:3899402)   #332
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Boy oh boy what a hornets nest, searching through a large collection of 1971 photo's (my own) I can not find any airbox fitted to a Chevron B19.
From memory, they were fitted 1972, first seen I think, at the European 2 litre, Silverstone 17/18th June, research continuing, obtainable from John Lepp, (Mirfield Garage entered) as they had the moulds made at Specialised Mouldings. I have one Photo of Juncadella in a Red Rose Tergal B21 at Barcelona, the airbox very prominent, most photos the driver obscures the air box.
Headlights had to be fitted for 1972 for World Championship for Makes for any sports car competing, but not for European Championship for up to 2 litre cars. Chevron supplied some nacelles to fitted on the outside, I turned them round and fitted then inside (Spa 1000Kms) Tony Galland did the same but made his square, as became the standard Chevron.
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Old 24 Apr 2019, 19:59 (Ref:3899471)   #333
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It was a general question, nothing to do with specific detail or any car

I have no affinity or specific interest in any one series, but those who purport to be FIA but with series regulations which clearly contravene certain aspects are hypocrites, Masters of their own little universe, and they do it only for business reasons, nothing to do with history, preservation of cars, or even sport. Just money.



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Originally Posted by Mike Bell View Post
If you’re talking about headlamps, it is a PA regulation in CER1 & CER2 that prototypes race with headlamps on, to make them more obvious to slower (not always ) GT cars. So the only option (according to MSUK) is to get HTP papers without, then fit......
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Old 25 Apr 2019, 08:01 (Ref:3899518)   #334
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Hi Louis, regarding the above mentioned point with air boxes etc, in Barcelona we ran a B19 with an air box, we have been told if we want to continue racing with an air box, it needs to be on the HTP for Spa next month.

I would like the option to run an air box and race in the same specification to our competitor's B19's.

My issue: We found the MSA will not grant papers for a B19 with headlights (required for Peter Auto events) and an air box in period G-
"07.07.17 We are not interested in what might be required for whatever series. An HTP can only be issued for a car exactly as it was in period - or a precise copy of such a car. If non period specification parts are needed for a series today then those parts must be fitted after a correct HTP has been obtained.
So, please fit the appropriate bodywork, remove all remaining airbox components and we can process this."


At the time we didn't want to dispute, so accepted the expense to have a spare nose painted (without headlights), removed the air box system, and finally the HTP was issued.

To resolve the Scrutineering/Air box issue; would you advise to:
-Re-submit HTP papers to the MSA with updated photos?
-Dispute the PA's scrutineer- Henri Pluton's decision?
...or is there an appeal system to protest every period G B19 in Europe running an air box?

If the HTP avenue has to be taken, could you clarify about headlights - I understand in 1971's appendix J Art. 270. allows the mounting of head lights. (I can't see how 5-3/4" headlamps are not period correct)

Thanks
Simon,

the answer is simple, you cannot run a B19 with airbox in Period GR according to FIA rules and you won't see one in the FIA Championship as far as I'm concerned because they didn't exist up until 1972 as far as I can document it...! And unlike the T212 which trialed it in 1971 notably in Imola.

You could argue Henri's decision but I will only back him and actually forward him the discussion and ask for all airbox to be removed for Period GR unless it can be documented. You can also appeal all these cars simply by putting a protest up to the Peter Auto Stewards... Or simply by telling the people to do their job I would say.

On headlights, it's a simple deal. Chevron manufactured specific and additional fibreglass round supports for headlights which you can see on numerous B19 in period across the world. If you want to fit headlights according to FIA rules, you must replicate the Chevron period attributes.

The bodywork incorporated headlights only appeared from 1972 onwards and additionally, you have to run symmetrical body and ROPS by that year as well so it's not as simple as one would think but it is period correct and that is what matters to us.

Best, Louis.
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Old 25 Apr 2019, 08:26 (Ref:3899526)   #335
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Originally Posted by Mike Bell View Post
If you’re talking about headlamps, it is a PA regulation in CER1 & CER2 that prototypes race with headlamps on, to make them more obvious to slower (not always ) GT cars. So the only option (according to MSUK) is to get HTP papers without, then fit......
Or to do the job as it was done up to 1971 included and to stop distorting history. The trouble is that people think Thundersports specification are the period correct one, which it's not.

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Old 25 Apr 2019, 09:15 (Ref:3899531)   #336
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zefarelly should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridzefarelly should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridzefarelly should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Where do you get the Period correct Castrol GTX girls from ?
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Old 25 Apr 2019, 10:29 (Ref:3899547)   #337
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Originally Posted by Duddha View Post
Simon,

the answer is simple, you cannot run a B19 with airbox in Period GR according to FIA rules and you won't see one in the FIA Championship as far as I'm concerned because they didn't exist up until 1972 as far as I can document it...! And unlike the T212 which trialed it in 1971 notably in Imola.

You could argue Henri's decision but I will only back him and actually forward him the discussion and ask for all airbox to be removed for Period GR unless it can be documented. You can also appeal all these cars simply by putting a protest up to the Peter Auto Stewards... Or simply by telling the people to do their job I would say.

On headlights, it's a simple deal. Chevron manufactured specific and additional fibreglass round supports for headlights which you can see on numerous B19 in period across the world. If you want to fit headlights according to FIA rules, you must replicate the Chevron period attributes.

The bodywork incorporated headlights only appeared from 1972 onwards and additionally, you have to run symmetrical body and ROPS by that year as well so it's not as simple as one would think but it is period correct and that is what matters to us.

Best, Louis.
Thanks Louis, I fully accept there are not period photos until February 1972.

My query is more ‘sporting’ related to the 4 other internationally prepared B19’s we are raced against in Barcelona with an air boxes on their HTP’s

Is it a case that we have to wait up to ten years for the opposition’s current HTP’s to expire?
Or will this warrant a accepted standard being written into appendix K next year?
...Failing the above do UK racers ship their cars internationally for more favourable HTP applications?

We are all happy to ‘play by the rules’ but only they should applied to everyone...
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Old 25 Apr 2019, 12:16 (Ref:3899560)   #338
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Originally Posted by Simon P View Post
Thanks Louis, I fully accept there are not period photos until February 1972.

My query is more ‘sporting’ related to the 4 other internationally prepared B19’s we are raced against in Barcelona with an air boxes on their HTP’s

Is it a case that we have to wait up to ten years for the opposition’s current HTP’s to expire?
Or will this warrant a accepted standard being written into appendix K next year?
...Failing the above do UK racers ship their cars internationally for more favourable HTP applications?

We are all happy to ‘play by the rules’ but only they should applied to everyone...
They do apply to everyone, the trouble is knowing if the HTPs you refer to are actually valid or just applications, in which case you can't do anything as it's not even validated.

Second aspect, the FIA recognises errors and they can happen as with all system involving a human person and even more with history as our knowledge of the past is an ever growing one as the years come by and pictures show up.

So you can request a red dot procedure to be applied by scrutineers to the valid HTP papers so that they are corrected for the next round.

#7 - Correct
#22 - It's a Chevron B21 allowed in CER1 and organiser decision, allowed to race with an airbox and a nonsense but what can we do...?
#56 - I suppose racing on an Application.
#67 - As per the above.

In fact, I have gone through the 22 valid HTPs for B19s and only 3 have an airbox fitted but previous to my time here and when procedures were different, these are exactly the ones that should be red doted for correction. I will tell Mr Pluton about this discussion.
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Old 25 Apr 2019, 13:31 (Ref:3899564)   #339
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Originally Posted by Duddha View Post
They do apply to everyone, the trouble is knowing if the HTPs you refer to are actually valid or just applications, in which case you can't do anything as it's not even validated.

Second aspect, the FIA recognises errors and they can happen as with all system involving a human person and even more with history as our knowledge of the past is an ever growing one as the years come by and pictures show up.

So you can request a red dot procedure to be applied by scrutineers to the valid HTP papers so that they are corrected for the next round.

#7 - Correct
#22 - It's a Chevron B21 allowed in CER1 and organiser decision, allowed to race with an airbox and a nonsense but what can we do...?
#56 - I suppose racing on an Application.
#67 - As per the above.

In fact, I have gone through the 22 valid HTPs for B19s and only 3 have an airbox fitted but previous to my time here and when procedures were different, these are exactly the ones that should be red doted for correction. I will tell Mr Pluton about this discussion.
Correction on #references :

#26 - Correct
#15 - Incorrect
#56 - Incorrect
#67 - Incorrect
#22 - A B21 which is Period HR as said so unless retro-specced to B19, can't do anything.
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Old 25 Apr 2019, 13:42 (Ref:3899566)   #340
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Originally Posted by Duddha View Post
They do apply to everyone, the trouble is knowing if the HTPs you refer to are actually valid or just applications, in which case you can't do anything as it's not even validated.

Second aspect, the FIA recognises errors and they can happen as with all system involving a human person and even more with history as our knowledge of the past is an ever growing one as the years come by and pictures show up.

So you can request a red dot procedure to be applied by scrutineers to the valid HTP papers so that they are corrected for the next round.

#7 - Correct
#22 - It's a Chevron B21 allowed in CER1 and organiser decision, allowed to race with an airbox and a nonsense but what can we do...?
#56 - I suppose racing on an Application.
#67 - As per the above.

In fact, I have gone through the 22 valid HTPs for B19s and only 3 have an airbox fitted but previous to my time here and when procedures were different, these are exactly the ones that should be red doted for correction. I will tell Mr Pluton about this discussion.
Louis, thank you for the very thorough answer, I appreciate any system on this scale can never be perfect! But this is all very reassuring.

My last query/clarification… the air box comprises of two sections, the external removable scoop and the bottom engine compartment section which retains the air filter.

Am I correct in assuming; The external scoop must be removed, but the lower ‘air filter-section’ can be retained?

Best,
Simon
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Old 25 Apr 2019, 13:44 (Ref:3899569)   #341
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Where do you get the Period correct Castrol GTX girls from ?

I just hope your team manager doesn't read this thread, Joe.
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Old 25 Apr 2019, 15:03 (Ref:3899581)   #342
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Originally Posted by Simon P View Post
Louis, thank you for the very thorough answer, I appreciate any system on this scale can never be perfect! But this is all very reassuring.

My last query/clarification… the air box comprises of two sections, the external removable scoop and the bottom engine compartment section which retains the air filter.

Am I correct in assuming; The external scoop must be removed, but the lower ‘air filter-section’ can be retained?

Best,
Simon
An airbox is an entity even if composed of multiple parts so it's all off unless you can prove the inner section to have been fitted.

For your information, all of these communications have been transmitted to the relevant scrutineers and parties involved.

To give you an insight, one car actually made a fool of our procedure by changing the true caption of the period specification picture presented on Page 2 of the HTP, 6 months apart and 1972, the airbox appeared. We're now a little more documented on these.
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Old 25 Apr 2019, 15:52 (Ref:3899587)   #343
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Originally Posted by Duddha View Post
An airbox is an entity even if composed of multiple parts so it's all off unless you can prove the inner section to have been fitted.

For your information, all of these communications have been transmitted to the relevant scrutineers and parties involved.

To give you an insight, one car actually made a fool of our procedure by changing the true caption of the period specification picture presented on Page 2 of the HTP, 6 months apart and 1972, the airbox appeared. We're now a little more documented on these.
Understood. If this is the position taken going forward, I have no issue.
In my point of view, I do not want any surprises next time out...!
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Old 25 Apr 2019, 19:57 (Ref:3899634)   #344
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Where do you get the Period correct Castrol GTX girls from ?
Dunno Joe, but whatever you do not mention alloy block BDG's
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