British GP to be held at Donington

[foreversideways]

Saw that news this morning. No mention of the great Walter Mitty himself but i wouldn't discount the possibility of Gillett popping up with another harebrained scheme in the future claiming, as our great leader Gordon Brown does !!, that non of it was his fault and this time everyone will make money.

[Sodemo]

I would like the track changes to go ahead. I never liked the fogarty esses as they were before, and would like to see the run from Coppice head straight into the Melbourne hairpin. I would still want a "national" Goddards chicane so that they could cut through much like they did in the past however.

[chunder]

Somehow I think making changes to the layout is the last issue worth worrying about, unless the track has been cut up so much it wouldnt make any difference anyway!!

For me, as mentioned in anotehr thread, leave the glory days behind, get rid of the loop and have a solid club venue. You can still have BTCC and BSB without spending the insane fees that Flammini and other series want for their "world "rounds.

WSBK this year has many UK champions past and present and as yet no UK round!! It should be at Donington, will Silverstone etep in? Or maybe Plamer to run it at Brands with the bargaining stick of all those champions and no track to see them on!

[p261brm]

Not the news any of us wanted to hear, but all of us in our heart of hearts knew this was going to be the end result. Donington as a race circuit is finished, under present conditions fairy Godmothers are a bit thin on the ground. It is quite some time since the sun shone on an event I attended there, the last probabley the 50th anniversary of the XK engine, still have the small commorative plaque those who attended the dinner received. Shame on those who are responsible for this very sad outcome.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by p261brm

Not the news any of us wanted to hear, but all of us in our heart of hearts knew this was going to be the end result. Donington as a race circuit is finished, under present conditions fairy Godmothers are a bit thin on the ground.

Oh nonsense.

Do the maths and see that a sensible operation could make a decent business case. We're not after fairy godmothers, just a club or business with vision and a modest bit of money working together with a family keen to see the circuit recover and willing to accept modest rent until the damage is repaired.

Modest track day activity plus some club racing from mid-2010 and full development in 2011.

Regards

Jim

[chunder]

Agreed Jim, all they need to do is lower expectations, perhaps sell some of the land, keep doing markets, keep using the exhibition centre, open up the museum, increase the prices there and have school visits etc, soon get people back.

[ascarracinguk]

i still dont know why they stepped the old pitlane....lost the fia gt and lms races just down to that...dumb!

[davyboy]

A lot depends on what kind of lease the Wheatcrofts are prepared to offer... and whether they will foot the bill for rendering the circuit suitable to race on. If they offer terms similar to Gillett had... and the circuit as is, it will be big ask for anybody to take it on as a commercial enterprise.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

i still dont know why they stepped the old pitlane....lost the fia gt and lms races just down to that...dumb!

To keep the Moto GP which actually made money rather than loosing them a heap as those races did.

And anyway, if a "stepped" pit lane works at Brands, why not Donington?

Jim

[JimW]

Originally Posted by davyboy

A lot depends on what kind of lease the Wheatcrofts are prepared to offer... and whether they will foot the bill for rendering the circuit suitable to race on. If they offer terms similar to Gillett had... and the circuit as is, it will be big ask for anybody to take it on as a commercial enterprise.

Or perhaps tailor the rent to take into account the need for £2M or so to be spent on the track and immediate surroundings?

Jim

[ascarracinguk]

so wat wil silverstone do? hav the new pits stepped n drive away fia gt and lms?

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by JimW

And anyway, if a "stepped" pit lane works at Brands, why not Donington?

Jim

Silverstone and Brands are completely different to Donington's stepped pit lane. Neither of them have pronounced steps that stick out into the pit lane. The steps at Donington cause cars to launch, the only circuit that has something similar is Oulton Park but it is much less problematic there.

It was built purely for bikes and is totally unsuitable for the LMS cars/F3 etc.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by JimW

Or perhaps tailor the rent to take into account the need for £2M or so to be spent on the track and immediate surroundings?

Jim

In this current economic climate, it wouldn't be unreasonable for the landlords to offer a lengthy rent free period in addition to presenting the track and facilities in full repair. Anyone taking this on as a commercial proposition would be looking at such a situation as a starting point and negotiating from there ! I'm currently in the process of negotiating a very large commercial lease and to say its a tenants' market is an understatement.

[p261brm]

Originally Posted by JimW

Oh nonsense.

Do the maths and see that a sensible operation could make a decent business case. We're not after fairy godmothers, just a club or business with vision and a modest bit of money working together with a family keen to see the circuit recover and willing to accept modest rent until the damage is repaired.

Modest track day activity plus some club racing from mid-2010 and full development in 2011.

Regards

Jim

I like your optimism, severe case of put your money where your mouth is,
your money not suggestions for other peoples money.
Ammounts in cash reaching Telephone number proportions are just a little difficult to come by, I do not have to do the maths, 1-3/4 million GBP minimun is a lot of money, The Wheatcroft family will have a debt to settle with the Inland Revenue you add it up comrade, and then make it pay with a dozen or so cars [silenced] twice a week testing and all the good trade at Silverstone.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by p261brm

I like your optimism, severe case of put your money where your mouth is,
your money not suggestions for other peoples money.
Ammounts in cash reaching Telephone number proportions are just a little difficult to come by, I do not have to do the maths, 1-3/4 million GBP minimun is a lot of money, The Wheatcroft family will have a debt to settle with the Inland Revenue you add it up comrade, and then make it pay with a dozen or so cars [silenced] twice a week testing and all the good trade at Silverstone.

Hmm, possibly. But your numbers on track activities are not correct. Before all this, five days a week were filled with track day activity/tests for at least 40 weeks per year. Do the maths. £20k/day equals £100k/week plus weekend revenue. That's £4M per year gross income. Even if I'm out by 50% it is still the basis for a business plan.

Why would the Wheatcrofts have a debt to settle with HMRC? DVLL might have but they are in administration and about to go into liquidation. Tough luck HMRC, not Wheatcrofts. Indeed the Wheatcrofts might well have their losses (of rent from DVL) to set against tax.

For this sort of business £2M is really quite modest. Six months gross income?

Regards

Jim

[p261brm]

Originally Posted by JimW

Why would the Wheatcrofts have a debt to settle with HMRC? DVLL might have but they are in administration and about to go into liquidation. Tough luck HMRC, not Wheatcrofts. Indeed the Wheatcrofts might well have their losses (of rent from DVL) to set against tax.

Death Duties Comrade' the lease is now back with the Wheatcroft family.
Dr. Palmer was in a different position when he acquired the Octagon set up, he had the added benifit of access to 'the clubhouse' where chaps of a similar disposition gathered and it suited their purpose to save those circuits. So I discount any involvement from that source as it is not in Silverstones interest to 'save' Donington. The flightpath another obsticle, and of course the Sunday morning lawn mower brigade, can not have nasty motor cars disturbing the peace. If you succeed in your mission to save Donington, best regards, you can add 2 & 2 at best you will get 3,
more problems than mere money.

[Ubique]

Originally Posted by p261brm

Death Duties Comrade' the lease is now back with the Wheatcroft family.
Dr. Palmer was in a different position when he acquired the Octagon set up, he had the added benifit of access to 'the clubhouse' where chaps of a similar disposition gathered and it suited their purpose to save those circuits. So I discount any involvement from that source as it is not in Silverstones interest to 'save' Donington. The flightpath another obsticle, and of course the Sunday morning lawn mower brigade, can not have nasty motor cars disturbing the peace. If you succeed in your mission to save Donington, best regards, you can add 2 & 2 at best you will get 3,
more problems than mere money.

You seem to have issues with Donington as a Circuit and appear to me to be one of those people on these forums who are glad to see a great track fail just so you Silverstoneista's can say "I told you so!" I know Jim personally and can tell you that he will have done his maths correctly to come up with the plan he has, (he also knows more about the running of Donington than most people on here) all it needs is some investors with that same sort of vision.

Your right on one thing it's not in the BRDC's intrest to have any circuits that can compete with their baby (Silverstone) but like all businesses you don't get progress without having competition that pushes you forward. The Flight Path is anything but an obstacle to the circuit as the jet noise actually helps the circuit avoid the sort of NIMBY noise restrictions that plague circuits like Brands, Croft and Oulton.

We all have a right to our own opinions but if all you want to do is pull Donington down then with all due respect please do so elsewhere and let those of us who care for what is widely regarded as one of the UK's top circuits discuss ways we can try and help get racing back where it belongs. Trust me if I had the sort of money to make the difference I would but sadly this is a Race Circuit not a lower league football club that can be bought by a fans consortium with many small shareholders. Or wait maybe we could follow the example of Your racing car??

[Ubique]

By the way p261brm please don't take my above reply as a personal attack or an attempt to stem debate but as someone who has given up a considerable amount of my spare time to ensure that racing can take place at Donington and other circuits (as a Marshal before people ask) I am getting a tad fed up of all the negativity surrounding Donington from many of the posters on this site. I am sue we all have the same feelings about Mr Gillett and what he did to the circuit and yes the British GP should be at Silverstone (but why Spain has 2 GP's and Britain only 1 I will never know) but was it wrong for Donington to dream and try and save the GP at a time when the BRDC had rejected the contract Bernie offered? Maybe just maybe if the financial meltdown hadn't occured Donington could have turned into a circuit that F1 would have been proud of. The sad fact is it didn't work out and many of us simply want to discuss ways to try and save the circuit. The time for negitivity has passed along with DVLL, now is a time for positive thinking and prayers that a great circuit isn't lost forever.

[ascarracinguk]

id still love to see the new loop being built....shame to loose all the earthworks that have gone into it!....would bring other top motorsport back too...be great to see gt racing back

[JimW]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

id still love to see the new loop being built....shame to loose all the earthworks that have gone into it!....would bring other top motorsport back too...be great to see gt racing back

I (half) agree with you. I'd love to see the bit that would have gone down inside the Old Hairpin - perhaps if new circuit management gets underway that might still happen at some future date. It would make a great (shorter) club circuit.

I'd be sorry to see the longer loop go ahead, the last thing club racing needs is longer circuits.

Regards

Jim

[ascarracinguk]

yeh if you look at the circuit plans the inner loop would still allow the current national circuit to exist albeit with a larger last chicane and 2 optional smaller circuits

[p261brm]

Ubique personally attack if you wish, I am not a great lover of Donington I admit nor cock a hoop re Silverstone either, If Oulton or Brands, Spa, Ring, so threatened I would admit to getting a litle excited, and to see Solitude re-used, not for the faint hearted that one. I have never wished or wanted to see Donington close, all I have tried to do is further debate and not in a direction you, Jim and others might agree, and as you point out that is my right, and for most part the 'negative' is the bit that bugs me. For neck end of 50 years I have been involved in this game, and had a lot of fun, and in that is where a lot of the problems within the sport lie. As one driver remarked since BE the F word has gone FUN, even whether freezing marshalling on the Measham, or soaking wet watching the greatest protagonist [in my humble opinion] from the pit lane at long distance racing plying his trade at Brands 1970. To the worst moments of seeing John Hine cartwheel in a ball of flame in front of me at Silverstone, or Zandvoort 1973 to Attwood winning the Glover 2004. I wish you and others God Speed [if you have one] in your efforts to see your dream realised. Still think you have more problems than rebuilding a Porka 908/3 gearbox.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by JimW

I (half) agree with you. I'd love to see the bit that would have gone down inside the Old Hairpin - perhaps if new circuit management gets underway that might still happen at some future date. It would make a great (shorter) club circuit.

I'd be sorry to see the longer loop go ahead, the last thing club racing needs is longer circuits.

Regards

Jim

Jim,

What was the 'longer loop'?

There are a few issues that I could foresee with generating rapid income at Donington as it stands.

At the moment the land supports the off-airport long term parking operation, the Sunday market and the Museum/Cafe/Shop as rebenue generating options. The track, as we know, would require some investment and weeks of work to refurbish but could then represent reasonable cash flow, one assumes, quite soon on completion.

The Exhibition centre is a different propostion by the looks of it. I would guess that much of it has been stripped out - certainly the fencing at the front has been trashed and partly removed. From what I could see last time I was at the circuit I imagine the interior has been 'liberated' as well. If so it may take more than a little work to make it usable again and even longer to make any arrangements for bookings that would start to generate income. On the plus side, if that is the right term for the building as it was, at last the demolition of the primary structure does not seem to have been started so something could be done, presumably, without the need for first building a structure.

What puzzles me about the work that has been carried out was that the earth works alongside the 'Dunlop' straight (where the new pits complex was to be) are quite high. Indeed they are some way above the current track level. If what is there is indeed the planned ground level for the planned pits complex there must have been more to the plan that there appeared to be from my reading of the drawings. But I can't see how that would have worked well with the height restrictions related to the airport operations. Makes a pretty good viewing platform though ...

[JimW]

Originally Posted by grantp

Jim,

What was the 'longer loop'?...

I was referring to the new track which would use close to the existing Melbourne loop (which I have always thought a mistake or, at least, badly executed).

At the moment the land supports the off-airport long term parking operation, the Sunday market and the Museum/Cafe/Shop as revenue generating options. The track, as we know, would require some investment and weeks of work to refurbish but could then represent reasonable cash flow, one assumes, quite soon on completion....

I don't see why the existing Sunday market site would be affected, nor the area used for airport parking. They are still there and, AFAIK, unaffected and in operation. Presumably the airport parking is outside the whole thing anyway? Perhaps the market is tied in with the liquidation?



The museum position still has to be clarified publicly. I'm working on the assumptions:

• Building etc. part of the lease which has now been returned.
• Cars either Tom's personal possessions or items lent to him but owned by others. In either case not really involved in DVLL but may perhaps take a little time to formally dis-entangle them from the liquidation.

I've heard a couple of knowledgeable people talk of £2M to get the track back to a point where it could be licensed.

The Exhibition centre is a different proposition by the looks of it. I would guess that much of it has been stripped out - certainly the fencing at the front has been trashed and partly removed. From what I could see last time I was at the circuit I imagine the interior has been 'liberated' as well. If so it may take more than a little work to make it usable again and even longer to make any arrangements for bookings that would start to generate income. On the plus side, if that is the right term for the building as it was, at last the demolition of the primary structure does not seem to have been started so something could be done, presumably, without the need for first building a structure.

Yes I agree that is an unknown. You could tell it several different ways.

What puzzles me about the work that has been carried out was that the earth works alongside the 'Dunlop' straight (where the new pits complex was to be) are quite high. Indeed they are some way above the current track level. If what is there is indeed the planned ground level for the planned pits complex there must have been more to the plan that there appeared to be from my reading of the drawings. But I can't see how that would have worked well with the height restrictions related to the airport operations. Makes a pretty good viewing platform though ...

I think that that would be due to the need for raised levels on the inside of Coppice Lodge corner to make the new pits and the straight alongside all on one level. The track at present falls away quite a bit from the highest point on the apex of Coppice. So with the planned track continuing at that level for the whole length of the new pits, the raised spectator banking earthworks might make sense.

Just my speculation.

Regards

Jim

[JimW]

Originally Posted by p261brm

. . . For neck end of 50 years I have been involved in this game, and had a lot of fun, and in that is where a lot of the problems within the sport lie. As one driver remarked since BE the F word has gone FUN, even whether freezing marshalling on the Measham,. . .

Me too for 40+ years and I still find it fun. Sure I gave up GPs (and World Rally) when they stopped being FUN (and most things with FIA in the title for the same reasons) but I still find weekends without any motorsport less interesting than most of the weekends with.

Regards

Jim