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Old 23 Apr 2019, 18:51 (Ref:3899236)   #276
Compromised
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Originally Posted by M91 View Post
Name 1 way that it was illegal
Ok so not illegal, no need to clip/change the Mustang then, right?

The English language doesn't have the same level of flexibility as Supercars homologation process - the Mustang is
legal now and wasn't before, otherwise why change it?
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Old 23 Apr 2019, 19:56 (Ref:3899244)   #277
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Originally Posted by Compromised View Post
Ok so not illegal, no need to clip/change the Mustang then, right?

The English language doesn't have the same level of flexibility as Supercars homologation process - the Mustang is
legal now and wasn't before, otherwise why change it?
It is possible for the law to change, and so what was illegal can become legal and vice versa.

In places where plastic bag use is prohibited - then nothing changed about the bag, but the use of it became illegal after a certain date.
The English language has enough flexibility to accept that what is legal today may become illegal tomorrow.

In the UK, lead in petrol was legal for a while, then became illegal.
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Old 23 Apr 2019, 19:58 (Ref:3899245)   #278
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Originally Posted by Compromised View Post
Ok so not illegal, no need to clip/change the Mustang then, right?

The English language doesn't have the same level of flexibility as Supercars homologation process - the Mustang is
legal now and wasn't before, otherwise why change it?
The Mustang was not illegal.... it was built to regulations in place at the time and was fully legal, hence why there will rightfully be no loss of points. However, with the parity tweaks (new regulations in a way) the car's aero has been adjusted to bring it back to the field. Not because it was illegal, just in the interests of parity.
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Old 23 Apr 2019, 21:25 (Ref:3899258)   #279
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The issue is technical parity.
If you can make sense of recreating 4 chassis that last year were untuneable, plonking a new body shape on them and immediately running up the front, something doesn’t work somewhere.

Running a 2 door car against a family hatch and a family sedan from a marketing perspective may create poor optics when the family sedan with no sporting pedigree of its own beats a premium priced 2 door sports car.
Yep, I was right. Your still whinging. And where was all this confected concern during Holdens dominance? It seems when 888 dominates then parity's achieved? Whats going to happen if the Commodore fills the the first few postilions at Tailem Bend like last year? Will they hobble the Commodores?
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Old 23 Apr 2019, 21:39 (Ref:3899261)   #280
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The EL got a new rear wing in '98, and then after that they changed the AU's front bumper a couple of times, mid-season in the early '00s. Probably around the same time the Commodore was adjusted.

Have to remember though, that back then the catagory may not have had access to anything like the technology we have now. So there would have been a lot of guesswork and relying on teams to be in agreeance prior to any changes.
Technology being running the cars down a runway to achieve aero parity? Yes runways were pretty rare in the 90's/early 00's. Even Team Dynamic had to drive all the way to Woomera to do their testing!!

If Supercars now want to be professional in the way they conduct parity then its about time. Hiring Burgess and Little is a positive step. However their usual hamfisted ways of going about it are amatuerish at best.

TCR must be loving this controversy a few weeks out from their debut.
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Old 23 Apr 2019, 21:57 (Ref:3899264)   #281
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The VR Commodore had its wings clipped mid-season in 1996, hence why Larry Perkins went back to the VP for Bathurst.
And the outcome did not reduce performance. The Commodore was still the car to beat and Larry's VP experiment was a failure.

There has been no instance of rendering the Commodore uncompetitive unlike the Sierra / Falcon and now the attempts to do likewise with the Mustang.
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Old 23 Apr 2019, 22:04 (Ref:3899265)   #282
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Who says it'll be uncompetitive?

Yeah, it'll probably affect the Tickford cars the worst, as I'm sure they've been enjoying a free kick up til now. But the DJRTP cars will still be at the pointy end. Perhaps not .5secs ahead of the field in qualy though.
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Old 23 Apr 2019, 22:15 (Ref:3899269)   #283
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It is possible for the law to change, and so what was illegal can become legal and vice versa.

In places where plastic bag use is prohibited - then nothing changed about the bag, but the use of it became illegal after a certain date.
Where shoppers given points for most plastic bags bought?

Where shoppers competiting to see who could get the most bags?

Where rules laid out before this bag competition and then changed a quarter of the way through said competition?

Analogies aren't good arguments unfortunately..
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Old 23 Apr 2019, 22:55 (Ref:3899271)   #284
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https://www.speedcafe.com/2012/07/08...lation-change/

Rule change half way through because someone read them a bit differently to the normal, nah.

Remember an Aussie bloke making a winged keel once that caught a few people out.
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Old 24 Apr 2019, 00:07 (Ref:3899277)   #285
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Originally Posted by chavez View Post
And the outcome did not reduce performance. The Commodore was still the car to beat and Larry's VP experiment was a failure.
I'm sure clipping the VR's wings would have reduced performance although the pecking order didn't change, HRT winning both Sandown and Bathurst. The reality was that it was HRT, rather than all Holden teams, that had a performance advantage, and the Bridgestone tyre they were on was superior to the other brands. Your statement that "not once has a Holden had a parity adjustment" was clearly incorrect.
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Originally Posted by chavez View Post
There has been no instance of rendering the Commodore uncompetitive unlike the Sierra / Falcon and now the attempts to do likewise with the Mustang.
The Sierra was never rendered uncompetitive. In 1990 it received an extra 85kg of weight, but still won 5 of the 8 rounds. For 1991 the 85kg was removed and it gained a 6 speed gearbox as part of the process. While it didn't dominate like it had in years prior, the arrival of the Nissan GTR was the most significant factor in that.

The changes to the Falcon post the 1993 ATCC clearly were too much the EB not being in the hunt at Bathurst, but this was redressed at the beginning of 1994. The changes post the 1995 ATCC must have been okay, Bowe and Seton leading much of the race at Bathurst. Until failing, Seton had Perkins measure in the closing stages.
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Old 24 Apr 2019, 02:04 (Ref:3899281)   #286
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Originally Posted by chavez View Post
Fiddling at the edges.

When did Holden be penalised to such a degree it took a race winning car to an also ran?

It has happened to Ford at least three times since 1990 and the noisy crowd won't be satisfied until it happens again.
This.

Truer words have never been spoken.
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Old 24 Apr 2019, 02:45 (Ref:3899284)   #287
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Didnt the '98 series force Mr Ingall and Mr Lowndes into VT Commodores during their championship tussle, or otherwise they couldnt be run at Bathurst?

Didnt the Holden mob get forced to get rid of the Holden engine with the VY double wishbone suspension, requiring a switch to the HMS/Aurora powerplant?
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Old 24 Apr 2019, 04:39 (Ref:3899291)   #288
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Originally Posted by GTRMagic View Post
Didnt the '98 series force Mr Ingall and Mr Lowndes into VT Commodores during their championship tussle, or otherwise they couldnt be run at Bathurst?

Didnt the Holden mob get forced to get rid of the Holden engine with the VY double wishbone suspension, requiring a switch to the HMS/Aurora powerplant?
You've gotta be kidding, double wishbone suspension is superior to mcpherson strut and the engine changes were requested by holden because they produced more power.
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Old 24 Apr 2019, 04:40 (Ref:3899292)   #289
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Didnt the Holden mob get forced to get rid of the Holden engine with the VY double wishbone suspension, requiring a switch to the HMS/Aurora powerplant?
Yes, which has served them well.
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Old 24 Apr 2019, 04:56 (Ref:3899294)   #290
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I have been exceptionally sceptical of this series for a number of years, and with this it is god to see they have lived up to my expectations - bloody terrible management processes
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Old 24 Apr 2019, 05:48 (Ref:3899304)   #291
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Originally Posted by Compromised View Post
Ok so not illegal, no need to clip/change the Mustang then, right?

The English language doesn't have the same level of flexibility as Supercars homologation process - the Mustang is
legal now and wasn't before, otherwise why change it?
Nothing has or was illegal on this Mustang at all. Was approved and signed off by Supercars.

What’s illegal about it?

If they run it in it’s current spec in WA , then yes it’s deemed illegal. Not before. They are changing it and clipping it due to aero advantage. How has any of the Ford teams participated illegally??
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Old 24 Apr 2019, 06:02 (Ref:3899308)   #292
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Originally Posted by gtcapri View Post
Yep, I was right. Your still whinging. And where was all this confected concern during Holdens dominance? It seems when 888 dominates then parity's achieved? Whats going to happen if the Commodore fills the the first few postilions at Tailem Bend like last year? Will they hobble the Commodores?
Where was all this commentary in 2006-2009 while 888 Fords were winning the championship and Bathurst?

Even 2010 was won in a 888-built car for DJR.

But all we hear from Ford fans now is how the series is 888/Holden biased, was it 888/Ford biased before? You can't have this both ways...

Despite the claims, the Commodore never dominated the series, 888 dominated the series, in both marques.

The Mustang however saw peanuts leap up 15 spots in the championship standings, and grabbing podium spots even when they could barely get out of their own way. The thing was an own goal through an outdated and flawed homologation process, with a car that clearly departed from the production car for performance reasons, and in hindsight the series shouldn't have let it be homologated as it was, especially with the rear wing end plates. These provide a huge cornering stability and therefore tyre wear benefit, and is in no way measured by the straight line testing.

Ludo also has plenty of from for creative rule interpretation, but nothing as dodgy or dangerous as 25kg mufflers.

The series has plenty of form for mid-season changes against both makes, so spare me the "Holden has never been penalised" malarkey. People like Bowe complaining about the squeaky wheel are comical. DJR and BJR were the biggest whingers in the AU era, then SBR showed them how it was done with the BA - and then 888 came along.

888's FG particularly was nigh on unbeatable, and was probably the best ever Supercar - in factory and customer hands. Maybe we'll never see a customer car win the series again.
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Old 24 Apr 2019, 06:58 (Ref:3899317)   #293
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So the Ford End Plates are 1.5 the width of the Holdens & the Nissan's are half that of Holden, easily. Parity I hardly think so ........
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Old 24 Apr 2019, 07:50 (Ref:3899324)   #294
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bloody terrible management processes
Absolutely. People can talk about how new people are in the technical department and are righting apparent wrongs. Still looks like amateur hour.

No doubt V8SC are going to test these changes on an airstrip prior to Perth? Isn't that the process when they make aero adjustments.



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Old 24 Apr 2019, 08:01 (Ref:3899328)   #295
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Absolutely. People can talk about how new people are in the technical department and are righting apparent wrongs. Still looks like amateur hour.

No doubt V8SC are going to test these changes on an airstrip prior to Perth? Isn't that the process when they make aero adjustments.



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Doesnt a lower gruney reduce aero drag?
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Old 24 Apr 2019, 08:01 (Ref:3899329)   #296
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Can't validate what they're changing on an airstrip.
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Old 24 Apr 2019, 08:21 (Ref:3899333)   #297
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Can't validate what they're changing on an airstrip.
So how do they validate it. Other than crossing their fingers at a race meet?

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Old 24 Apr 2019, 08:28 (Ref:3899334)   #298
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Where was all this commentary in 2006-2009 while 888 Fords were winning the championship and Bathurst?

Even 2010 was won in a 888-built car for DJR.

But all we hear from Ford fans now is how the series is 888/Holden biased, was it 888/Ford biased before? You can't have this both ways...

Despite the claims, the Commodore never dominated the series, 888 dominated the series, in both marques.

The Mustang however saw peanuts leap up 15 spots in the championship standings, and grabbing podium spots even when they could barely get out of their own way. The thing was an own goal through an outdated and flawed homologation process, with a car that clearly departed from the production car for performance reasons, and in hindsight the series shouldn't have let it be homologated as it was, especially with the rear wing end plates. These provide a huge cornering stability and therefore tyre wear benefit, and is in no way measured by the straight line testing.

Ludo also has plenty of from for creative rule interpretation, but nothing as dodgy or dangerous as 25kg mufflers.

The series has plenty of form for mid-season changes against both makes, so spare me the "Holden has never been penalised" malarkey. People like Bowe complaining about the squeaky wheel are comical. DJR and BJR were the biggest whingers in the AU era, then SBR showed them how it was done with the BA - and then 888 came along.

888's FG particularly was nigh on unbeatable, and was probably the best ever Supercar - in factory and customer hands. Maybe we'll never see a customer car win the series again.
Yip that's pretty much it!

Cry cry cry gloat cry cry gloat cry cry cry.... Ford fanboys.

I liked that photo posted last night. Funny how the brains of the operation is tied up out front.
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Old 24 Apr 2019, 08:37 (Ref:3899337)   #299
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So how do they validate it. Other than crossing their fingers at a race meet?

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The issue isn't with how the cars work in a straight line.

The investigation was to bascially compare CFD data from the 3 bodyshapes at yaw, and go from there.
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Old 24 Apr 2019, 09:39 (Ref:3899342)   #300
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Didnt the '98 series force Mr Ingall and Mr Lowndes into VT Commodores during their championship tussle, or otherwise they couldnt be run at Bathurst?
Something like that, may well have cost Holden the win that year as while once sorted the VT was a good racecar, HRT was fast enough but had tyres catching the bodywork issues, while the Perkins car was slower down the straights than the VS had been.
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