Is Phiilip Island a safe race track??

[PVDA]

V8 Supercar driver Andrew Jones has called for the earth filled tyre walls surrounding the Phillip Island Grand Prix Circuit to be replaced by concrete according to an article in today's Herald Sun newspaper.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...-11088,00.html

This has once again put the tyres walls at PI into the spot light.

They first came to public notice during the Coronial inquest into Greg Hansford's 1995 fatal collision where he left the track between Turns 1 & 2 in a Supertourer and the tyres bounced him back into oncoming race traffic resulting in another car colliding with the drivers side door of the car.

In the 13 years since there have been countless examples of cars hitting the tyre walls with David Auger (Alfa Romeo) & John Bowe (DJR Falcon) to name just two which there is video footage of.

I noticed with interest that a short section of the wall opposite the pit lane has only just been replaced by concrete and wonder when the rest of the circuit will be done and why they bothered to replace just that small section in the first place.

At the time of the Hansford collision one excuse given was that the Motorcycle Grand Prix riders wouldn't allow it but this doesn't wash these days with the availability of so called "air fences" in high risk locations but at PI the majority of the walls are a long way away for motorcycles.

Now that a V8Supercar driver has publicly commented I watch with interest for any official response.

[Denosaur]

If he wants them ban them at the PI, then he's going to have to consider Symmons Plains as well, and any other track (It's Monday morning and can't think that much) that has them.

In regards to his incident, they probably need to extend the gravel trap there on the left, which is roughly in front of the the Hay Shed down pass Flag Point 8, which he just missed and finish it before the service road near Flag Point 7. That should keep anyone off that wall. I have observed that in that area, that once you come off drivers left between the exit of 6 and in turn 7, your a passenger until you hit that wall. Nothing to stop you from hitting it, just the slippery mud.

And anyway, how's concrete going to make it any better?? Unless you put SAFER barriers of tyres in front, it's going to do a lot more damage.

Also PVDA, don't forget that they probably only did that small bit of wall on the main straight as they can get some advertising dollars on it to pay for it. Plus each wall at PI has to be a retaining wall at the same time. Building those things properly so that they last the test of time and conditions down there, cost a hell of a lot more to put up than if the ground was level on both sides of the fence.

[MPA]

Originally Posted by PVDA

This has once again put the tyres walls at PI into the spot light.

In the 13 years since there have been countless examples of cars hitting the tyre walls with David Auger (Alfa Romeo) & John Bowe (DJR Falcon) to name just two which there is video footage of.

I noticed with interest that a short section of the wall opposite the pit lane has only just been replaced by concrete and wonder when the rest of the circuit will be done and why they bothered to replace just that small section in the first place.

Fair comment, but in the past 13 years have you last also noticed the ongoing safety improvements to the place?

The tyre wall at pit entry that Trimbole hit, removed and replaced with concrete at a lesser angle.

The tyre wall at Turn 10. Removed, Marshals Post relocated and kitty litter installed.

Turn 8. Tyre wall pushed back, marshal's post relocated.

Outside fence at 3 going into Honda, pushed back, more kitty litter.

Honda, Marshal's Post was Driver's Left. Flattened and moved to Driver's right.

Just like you PVDA, I could go on but I think you get the idea.

Is Phillip Island safe? I think that's a silly question. What motor racing circuit is safe? It's a dangerous sport. But have the owners of PI been doing nothing about safety? No. They've been rather busy.

[MPA]

Over the past few years I've also lost count of how many drivers spin and resume with a flaggie commenting "How lucky was he to keep it off the wall!"

To which I reply "Luck had nothing to do with it, they removed the wall."

I've seen many drivers go home with nothing more than flat spotted rubber instead of a wrecked car due to their "Luck"

Hey Knackers, have you noticed the improvement to the medical centre and all the other off track stuff too? It would be nice if the place was so safe you never had to use the medics, but this is real world we're living in.

Not to mention there's a new catch fence being installed along the pit wall.

[peckstar]

itsa a funny thing safety. is safety meant to stop the driver who has run off at full speed or is it meant to stop the person who has had an off but is in some form of control.

If lives are saved but cars are destroyed then i say the safety level is right. The otehr alternative is to slow the cars down, say a maximum of 30kmh that should be safe and protect serius damage to cars, but hey who would want to compete.

AJ should be happy he can walk away

Ive seen concrette barries at clipsal, they do alot of damage when you hit them

[Trevor]

Air filled tyres adsorb impact (i.e. nothing in them), earth (dirt) filled tyres do not absorb impact - simple really.

[MPA]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

Air filled tyres adsorb impact (i.e. nothing in them), earth (dirt) filled tyres do not absorb impact - simple really.

True that...

Have you seen all the free standing, chained tyre bundles complete with rubber belting in front of the earth filled tyre walls around the track? I'd say more work needs to be done, but that is always the case with anything to do with safety.

Drivers should remember the words of our former World Driver's Champ AJ. "When you run out of brakes, find something soft to hit." I remember AJ sticking a PJ Falcon into the wall at turn 10 on a wet warm up lap. Would not happen today, that wall has gone.

[mountainstar]

Concrete walls are stupid. They really need SAFER barriers.

[TilkeWannabe]

Course it's safe.

[PVDA]

Trouble is you guys aren’t looking at what I’m try to say.

Yes PI has made many changes to various run off areas which has reduced the number of car vs. wall hits in some areas. . I can remember PI back before it closed in the late 70's and there wasn't much between the spectators and the race cars in some areas but a simple people fence but the problem still remains that when they rebuilt the site in the 80’s they surrounded the entire complex with earth filled tyre walls which although cheap to build are not the best option.

There are many different types of collisions in motorsport with may variables from the speed of the vehicle to the angle of the hit. Tyre bundles in low speed head on collisions are good at reducing vehicle damage and driver injury BUT a glancing blow, like Andy Jones yesterday into any form of tyre wall can result in a vehicle digging into the wall and this throws the vehicle anywhere.

Lets look at a couple of scenarios of a theoretical collision with a wall at say 45 degrees which is probably what Jones did yesterday.

Car leaves circuit and heads for a smooth concrete wall.
Car hits wall at angle which damages that corner of the car and the momentum then causes the car to slide along the wall until it runs out of momentum and it comes to a gentle stop (gentle by motorsport standards).
This car probably has damage to the entire one side of the car but because there was no sudden stop or High G change in direction driver injury is kept to a minimum. In Jones’s case yesterday he would’ve ended up somewhere near the gravel trap before the hayshed. Denosaur suggested a gravel trap prior to the wall which is an excellent idea but you still need something to deflect the car if it gets through the gravel.

Now lets do the same with an earth filled tyre wall.

Car leaves the circuit and heads for a tyre wall.
Car hits the tyre wall and depending on exactly where it hits one of the following "could" happen (tyre walls aren't smooth and there are gaps & differing amounts of give between different tyres even if conveyor belts are used);

1. car digs in and bounces out from the wall possibly into the path of other cars. Depending on the angles involved the G forces could be severe.

2. car digs in and destroys the wall and the car comes to a violent sudden stop with extremely high G forces for the driver.

3. car digs in and is forced upwards by the impact and goes over the wall or rolls along it. This option is possibly the best for the driver as there's no sudden stop but will trash the car. This looks to be what happened to Jones yesterday from what I saw on the TV.

The above is long winded but it's not easy to describe the forces involved without some detail and there are a lot more possible scenarios that you could apply it all depends on exactly where the car hits the tyres , the speed, the angle of the hit and the design of the vehicle involved.

Everyone thinks it's better to hit nice soft tyres compared with hard concrete but it's not the initial hit but what results from it you must consider. There are places for tyre bundles (proper bundles chained together not earth filled tyre walls) but this is in lower speed head on situations not high speed glancing blows like we saw yesterday or in the past at PI & other tracks around the country.

Race track safety is an ongoing cost that has to be met by circuit owners as a part of operating a race track and involves negotiations between sanctioning bodies (at PI they have cars & bikes to consider) and the circuit owner as standards change and improve as we learn more.

Phillip Island is considered safe as it would meet the minimum requirements to hold a track licence for both CAMS & MA events but that doesn't mean they cant do more gradually to ensure they exceed the minimum requirements to make it even safer.

If you don’t believe what I’ve said in my scenarios above contact your local track safety committee member and have a long chat to them about the merit of concrete vs. earth filled tyres as I have in the past. There are all sort of formulas for determining the size of run offs depending on vehicle speed and the size and depth of gravel traps which fill volumes on the FIA web site.

I stand by my belief, that I've had since the mid 90's, that Earth Fill Tyre walls should be phased out of motorsport tracks.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by PVDA

Everyone thinks it's better to hit nice soft tyres compared with hard concrete but it's not the initial hit but what results from it you must consider. There are places for tyre bundles (proper bundles chained together not earth filled tyre walls) but this is in lower speed head on situations not high speed glancing blows like we saw yesterday or in the past at PI & other tracks around the country.

I hear you talking Pee Vee, she is a high speed track and you are right to point out the shortcomings...for me, its the bottom of the main straight, there is going to be a big one there some day (possibly a T Bone coming out of the loop!!).

PI is definately a candidate for some of the new technology energy absorbing crash fences...the trouble with air filled tyre barriers is that if hit the right way, the chains give way and the tyres get carried away.

The conveyor-belt-fronted tyre barriers are probably better in this respect, so long as there is sufficient tyre bundle depth/strength behind them.

Bottom line...Motor Racing is Dangerous

[PVDA]

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...-39478,00.html

This kind of backs my position although 13 years too late it's good to see they are now talking about replacing the earth filled tyre walls around the place with concrete.

[Denosaur]

Originally Posted by PVDA

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...-39478,00.html

This kind of backs my position although 13 years too late it's good to see they are now talking about replacing the earth filled tyre walls around the place with concrete.

There only one reason it has taken so long, and that is dollars. You think about what it's going to cost with concrete at over a $100 a cubic metre these days, and that doesn't include any of the other associated costs.

[NewsStalker]

Re the Herald Sun article - does anyone else find Cameron's remarks a little at odds with reality given that for (how many years?) he was a co-owner of the track and none of these 'safety improvements' were considered or mentioned during that time?

That aside - no matter what improvements or changes are made to the track (any track for that matter) cars and drivers will always try and drive/race on what isn't really there. For example drivers will ***** about a corner 'not being wide enough' so the track owner widens the track by, say, a metre. Give it 12 months and drivers will again start to complain the corner isn't right 'for their cars' so the owner is, again, forced to make further changes. This has happened at numerous circuits and will, no doubt, happen no matter what the Fox's do at the Island.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

Re the Herald Sun article - does anyone else find Cameron's remarks a little at odds with reality given that for (how many years?) he was a co-owner of the track and none of these 'safety improvements' were considered or mentioned during that time?

Just like the Liberals and single aged pension really.

[Denosaur]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

Re the Herald Sun article - does anyone else find Cameron's remarks a little at odds with reality given that for (how many years?) he was a co-owner of the track and none of these 'safety improvements' were considered or mentioned during that time?

That aside - no matter what improvements or changes are made to the track (any track for that matter) cars and drivers will always try and drive/race on what isn't really there. For example drivers will ***** about a corner 'not being wide enough' so the track owner widens the track by, say, a metre. Give it 12 months and drivers will again start to complain the corner isn't right 'for their cars' so the owner is, again, forced to make further changes. This has happened at numerous circuits and will, no doubt, happen no matter what the Fox's do at the Island.

Back when he was a co-owner they were in it for the money. Property prices down there for that sort of sized land have gone through the roof over the last 8 years. The previous owners sold up at the right time and did what they set out to achieve in the first place, make a decent profit from there investment. Before Linfox bought the place, they would be lucky to break even for a Supertaxi round down there. After it got sold, VE$A tried to pull the wool over the new owners and had no luck, hence why VE$A promote and run the weekend.

If it wasn't for the purchase of the place by Linfox, then the facilities would have gone down hill, and things like the concrete wall wouldn't have happened. I don't think the previous owners wanted to spend the money, unlike Linfox who have established a plan to improve the place over time and get it up to a higher standard. Then again I could be wrong about the previous owners.

[Denosaur]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

Re the Herald Sun article - does anyone else find Cameron's remarks a little at odds with reality given that for (how many years?) he was a co-owner of the track and none of these 'safety improvements' were considered or mentioned during that time?

That aside - no matter what improvements or changes are made to the track (any track for that matter) cars and drivers will always try and drive/race on what isn't really there. For example drivers will ***** about a corner 'not being wide enough' so the track owner widens the track by, say, a metre. Give it 12 months and drivers will again start to complain the corner isn't right 'for their cars' so the owner is, again, forced to make further changes. This has happened at numerous circuits and will, no doubt, happen no matter what the Fox's do at the Island.

Back when he was a co-owner they were in it for the money. Property prices down there for that sort of sized land have gone through the roof over the last 8 years. The previous owners sold up at the right time and did what they set out to achieve in the first place, make a decent profit from there investment. Before Linfox bought the place, they would be lucky to break even for a Supertaxi round down there. After it got sold, VE$A tried to pull the wool over the new owners and had no luck, hence why VE$A promote and run the weekend.

If it wasn't for the purchase of the place by Linfox, then the facilities would have gone down hill, and things like the concrete wall wouldn't have happened. I don't think the previous owners wanted to spend the money, unlike Linfox who have established a plan to improve the place over time and get it up to a higher standard. Then again I could be wrong about the previous owners.

[NewsStalker]

This is a business though - and this definately isn't the forum to start airing political views.

[PVDA]

Linfox came in and upped the hire rate for the complex (that is what you pay to use the place) and they've done to it what they've had to do to keep it's licence.

The motel & golf course they are trying to build next door is going to be the main money spinner for Linfox but they keep getting political hurdles thrown in front of them which is stopping them from proceeding.

The other thing to remember is Lindsay Fox is a cars man, just look at his car collection in Docklands, and his support of the Geelong Speed Trials certainly kept that event going a lot long than it probably would've.

[MPA]

No PVDA I don't think I missed your point. Both of us know what can happen when a car hits a tyre wall at speed on a slight angle. You've noticed the concrete wall opposite pit lane.......How much more high speed, slight angle can you get?

Originally Posted by PVDA

I noticed with interest that a short section of the wall opposite the pit lane has only just been replaced by concrete and wonder when the rest of the circuit will be done and why they bothered to replace just that small section in the first place.

As for the rest of the track, I guess we'll have to wait and see. But most of the improvements I mentioned were done before the place was sold to Fox, so Big Trev's Liberal remarks can be discounted.

But for me, its that tyre wall driver's left on the entry to turn one. What does it do apart from protect the CCTV pole and the occasional recovery vehicle. Mate I'd flatten that and put a small but better wall down near point 3 to cover the back of Post 3 and the access road to the southern loop.

[Troy]

This is why tyre filled earth banks need to be removed from racetracks - just ask Terry Finnigan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghAUR...eature=related

[Trevor]

No matter what they do with stuff for driver safety down there, they (V8SC's) are going to continue to struggle to get fans to go there.

They pinched the 500 off Sandown to try to improve the fan numbers, but alas their plan wasn't too succuesful. hahahahaha

[NewsStalker]

They didn't 'pinch' the 500 off Sandown, Sandown lost it because it couldn't keep up with the 21st century - plain and simple - look back towards its former promoter and you will understand why.

[Trevor]

Oh yes they did!

They wanted "their" (V8SC's) event to succeed at any cost and what they did was take a successful event from Sandown and 'relocated' it to the Island to prop up their own numbers and it didn't work.

The numbers of fans at Sandown over the last few years were quite significant, I mean in the 30,000 to 40,000 range for Sunday, there was no way that there were that many down at the Island for all 3 days put together.

My theory is "if it ain't broken, don't try to fix it", V8SC's tried and failed - a great bit LOL to them.

[MPA]

Trev....The 500 at Sandown was "their" (V8SC) event.... Davo has not promoted the event in years.

So why move it to Phillip Island in a pinch?